On the Way Out: FireWire and Matte Screens?

On 22/10/2008 2:05 AM, "sgoldhargmail.com" <sgoldhargmail.com> spake thus:

> I never caught on to the Migration Assistant and I wonder if people
> find it useful.

Best piece of software Apple ever created! I've used it many times now, and
it gets me up and running more or less as if nothing happened within about
ten minutes of the install completing (depending on where the files are
coming from). It doesn't catch some of the Unix-level stuff, which I have to
do manually, but otherwise it's a huge time saver. It's surprising some of
the things it does pick up that I wouldn't have expected, like my Fink
installation.

There were some problems with the early versions, but I've found it to be
rock solid in recent incarnations.

--
Nigel Stanger, Dunedin, NEW ZEALAND.
http://xri.net/=nigel.stanger

John C. Welch wrote "You do not have a FW hard drive. You never did. You have PATA/SATA drives ..."

I'm well aware that those disks are *ATA with FW bridges. Changing the enclosures for four 3.5" drives and two 2.5" drives (buying reliable enclosures that may not be the cheapest ones) would cost me about 160 EUR (things are more expensive in Europe than in the US). That's not a huge sum, but it's not insignificant either (one fifth of the MacBook White price).

So I'll have to pay to get slower transfer rates. I'm not very happy about that. And with the new MacBook I'll also loose the target disk mode. That's a lot of "minus" sides.

I do understand Apple's choice (most people don't have legacy equipment, and may never need target disk mode), but in my case that's a very unfortunate choice !

kevinv wrote "But then I don't recommend self-powered FW either, I've not had good luck with it."

I have no experience with self powered USB2 drives, but I've been using intensively a self-powered FW400 2.5" LaCie since FW exists on Macs and it has always worked flawlessly (I've changed once the drive for a larger capacity one, keeping the enclosure with the bridges & co). I've bought more recently a second one (SafeDisk) that I use for backing up hundreds of Gb at a time: it gets very hot but works fine.

On 10/23/08 at 2:50 AM, bperreysbcglobal.net (Bob Perrey) wrote:

>David Ross wrote:
>>Firewire is dead. It just hasn't admitted it yet. And it may linger on
>>for years. But once Intel went to USB 2 and now USB 3 and Apple switched
>>to Intel CPUs, well the future was certain, just not well plotted.
>>
<snip>
>
>FireWire is alive and well in Sony camcorders as well as other DV video
>cameras, audio hardware interfaces (ProTools interfaces, including
>M-Audio, as well as Mackie and others), some card readers, and
>many-if-not-most connections to external hard drives. Fading? Hardly.
>Moreover, the fact that Apple did not include FW on its entry-level
>notebook and in the iPhone 3G hardly indicates they plan to kill it
>throughout the line. One should note too that PCs have never fully
>implemented FW, providing only 4-pin connectors on any PC I'm aware of.
>AND, there will be ExpressCard-slot FW adapters or others if the need
>arises.

Sorry, but I have to agree more with David. Sad, but true. Take
a look at your local big-box computer/electronics store and
count the number of camcorders with FireWire. I've been keeping
half an eye on the situation for the last couple of years,
because I've been tempted to buy a camcorder more than once.
MiniDV camcorders are getting harder to find, and ones with
FireWire ports harder still. The camcorders that are replacing
them - either disc-based, drive-based, or flash memory based -
are USB. New semi-pro and professional camcorders may still use
FireWire, but now you're talking about cameras that cost almost
as much as - if not more than - the MacBook itself.

Hard drives are a slightly different story... because FireWire
HDs have usually been a Mac-specialty item, instead of a broad
consumer product. With few exceptions, the only places I could
find FireWire HDs were in the Mac department. Even at computer
specialists like CompUSA and MicroCenter that had FW HD's in
their general hard drive section, FW was still outnumbered by
USB-only drives by at least 2:1. I admit that for my own
personal drive purchases, the ratio has been closer to 5:1 or
6:1 over the last 2-3 years, largely because USB drives have
become dirt cheap while FW drives have remained expensive. A
portable bus-powered 160 gig USB drive from Western Digital is
now $70 at MicroCenter; the cheapest portable 160 gig FireWire
drive is $110. A 250 gig USB drive is $90; a 250 gig FireWire
drive is $150. Those differences in price - around a 60% markup
- are too big to ignore when USB is 'good enough', and for the
last couple of years it has been for most uses. Even bus-powered
portable drives, which were once a problem, have started working
reliably in the last couple of years; as long as I use a
high-quality cable (preferably one that came with a drive), I've
been able to use them on every Mac I've tried that's been made
in the last 3-4 years. The last machine I've had any trouble
with was my old PowerBook G4 made in 2004.

And that's really about it for FireWire devices that have had
broad adoption. FireWire card readers? A drop in the bucket
compared to USB card readers, insignificant. FireWire audio
interfaces? Popular and powerful among serious musicians, but
still a specialty item that you're not going to find in your
average computer store, let alone consumer electronics shops
like Best Buy. Whether you like it or not - and I don't - the
trend is that FireWire is disappearing from the broad
marketplace, only staying stable in high-end and specialty products.


Travis Butler
tbutlermac.com

...Cats are the proof of a higher purpose to the universe.

On 23-Oct-2008, at 01:50, Sander Tekelenburg wrote:
> At 05:58 -0700 UTC, on 2008-10-21, Kevin van Haaren wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Have you tried finding a firewire enclosure at a computer store?
>> Online
>> it's pretty easy, in a store not so much. Every enclosure of recent
>> vintage
>> also has USB built-in.
>
> This sounds entirely anecdotal. My, also anecdotal, experience is the
> opposite: the past 5 years or so, up until just a few months ago,
> every
> (non-virtual) Mac shop I tried sold only FireWire enclosures.

Well, I'm guessing you are not in the US then. I've not been able to
get a firewire enclosure in a brick and mortar store for about 5
years. They just don't exist, and if they do, they are WILDLY
overpriced (2-3 times the cost of a similar USB2/eSata enclosure).

I notice that Apple will now migrate your information off your old
computer to your new Apple computer right at the Apple store. Maybe
that's how they are handling the lack of FireWire and thus disk target
mode that Migration Assistant use to use.

--
David Weintraub
qazwartgmail.com

On Oct 23, 2008, at 12:50 AM, David Ross wrote:

> Any suggestions on decent versions of said filters/films?


I've heard really good things about this anti-glare film:

http://photodon.com/lcdprotect-sheet.htm

Randy B. Singer • Mac OS X Routine Maintenance • http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html

>
> Posted by: Nigel Stanger Date: Oct 23, 2008.
>
> On 22/10/2008 2:05 AM, "sgoldhargmail.com" <sgoldhargmail.com> spake
> thus:
>
> > I never caught on to the Migration Assistant and I wonder if people
> > find it useful.
>
> There were some problems with the early versions, but I've found it
> to be
> rock solid in recent incarnations.
>

Yes, considering the various ages of the computers around here, I
probably tried to use it last about 2 or 2-1/2 years ago. At the time
I think I checked off some of the options I didn't want moved and it
disregarded me and moved them anyway. And I also encountered problems
using it between two different systems (probably panther and tiger).
So I moved things manually after that.

But in general, I would want some flexibility in just moving a
specific user and not everything else on the computer and although I
can't remember exactly how it works I'm pretty sure I was never able
to do that.

> On Oct 23, 2008, at 12:50 AM, David Ross wrote:
>
> > Any suggestions on decent versions of said filters/films?
>
>
> I've heard really good things about this anti-glare film:
>
> http://photodon.com/lcdprotect-sheet.htm
>

Oh, in the 1990s we were buying some anti glare screens for the CRT
monitors, then it supposedly became unnecessary because they came with
something built in...(well, they still reflected everything...) It's
like a roller coaster ride with this technology. Every minute I save
working on a computer probably gets spent in care and feeding...
--sg

On Thu, 23 Oct 2008, David Weintraub wrote:

> I notice that Apple will now migrate your information off your old
> computer to your new Apple computer right at the Apple store.

They've offered this for about as long as they have stores.

They're not really doing anything you couldn't do at home with a
Firewire cable or, these days, over the network.

It's useful if you lack the equipment or the confidence to do the
transfer yourself, but in most cases it's nothing that a regular user
couldn't do by themselves.

(The Windows to Mac transfers, on the other hand, are a little
different, aimed mainly at switchers that are probably just learning
Macs and may not really understand Windows, either. Those can be harder
to replicate at home, but it's still nothing a savvy user couldn't do on
their own if they have a network connection or a USB drive to use.)


--
Chris Devers
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL

--On October 23, 2008 12:50:53 AM -0700 Sander Tekelenburg
<tekelenbeuronet.nl> wrote:

> This sounds entirely anecdotal. My, also anecdotal, experience is the
> opposite: the past 5 years or so, up until just a few months ago, every
> (non-virtual) Mac shop I tried sold only FireWire enclosures. Each and
> every time I needed to inform them that the same enclosure was also
> available with FireWire 400, 800, and USB 2, all cables included, for
> only about ¤10,- more, after which they would enthusiastically order me
> one. But to the average uninformed non-professional -- the
> non-professionals that Apple targets with their iMacs and MacBooks, which
> now suddenly lack FireWire -- they kept selling FireWire-only enclosures.

Well in Kansas City Missouri there are only 2 Mac shops that I'm aware of,
both Apple Stores, and neither, that i've found, carry firewire only
devices. they may have a few that are firewire + USB, but most i've seen
are USB only. Same for the Mac store in a store that Microcenter has.
They actually have more firewire drives in their Mac section than the
regular section, but most are dual devices that cost more.

Actually I'm hoping Apple adds E-SATA support on the iMacs (and hopefully
mac mini). I think that's better for drives than firewire although it
obviously doesn't support cameras.

At 22:58 -0700 UTC, on 2008-10-23, LewisGmail wrote:

> On 23-Oct-2008, at 01:50, Sander Tekelenburg wrote:

[...]

>> the past 5 years or so, up until just a few months ago,
>> every
>> (non-virtual) Mac shop I tried sold only FireWire enclosures.
>
> Well, I'm guessing you are not in the US then.

Correct. I'm quite sure the dutch Apple market is a *lot* smaller than the US
market -- my anecdote may very well be the exception. But it seemed useful to
me to point out that local US situations don't necessary translate 1:1 to a
worldwide situation-- the US market too may be the exception.

At 00:32 -0700 UTC, on 2008-10-25, Kevin van Haaren wrote:

[...]

> Well in Kansas City Missouri there are only 2 Mac shops that I'm aware of,

In my home town of under 300.000 inhabitants there are at least 3 Mac shops,
none of them Apple stores. In a one hour driving radius I can choose from
another 10 (non-Apple Stores) easily. And to think that overhere, Apple's
'market share' (whatever one means with that) is said to be about 5% only...


--
Sander Tekelenburg, <http://www.euronet.nl/~tekelenb/>

--On October 23, 2008 12:50:53 AM -0700 Sander Tekelenburg
<tekelenbeuronet.nl> wrote:

This sounds entirely anecdotal. My, also anecdotal, experience is the

opposite:

At 12:50 AM -0700 10/23/08, Kirk McElhearn wrote:
>The article says:
>
>"Personally, I use Target Disk Mode in every hard disk- or boot-
>related troubleshooting situation I encounter. And in enterprise
>situations, Target Disk Mode enables support technicians to carry a
>utility-equipped Mac laptop to nearly any Mac that's not working and
>perform all sorts of diagnostic and troubleshooting procedures,
>significantly reducing the cost of support, particularly in comparison
>with PCs, which lack a similar feature."
>
>I'm not sure I understand. You boot a problematic Mac in TDM? I just
>boot from an external disk (either FW or USB, depending on the Mac).

Sure. There are plenty of times when a Mac won't boot, but I can put
it into TDM and work on it from another Mac, usually my MacBook. I
could boot it from another disk, but with TDM I have a fully
functional Mac that I know has all my latest software on it, and if I
need to download something or whatnot, I'm using my live Mac, not
just a boot drive that may or may not be in a completely current
state.

cheers... -Adam

Charles Harrison wrote:
>
> My last high end product purchase was a Sony HDR-HG3 HDV 1080, their
> Handy Cam for real HD video. But to get it off the tape in the camera
> one needs to use their iLINK connection to your computer. Turns out
> this is their version of IEEE 1394 the Fire wire connection. They
> don't mention Fire Wire in their manual but that is the IEEE
> standard. So Sony has plans to use the connection. I don't see it
> going away but hidden.

Sony was one of the "originals" for the FireWire concept. And with Sony I figure them to be one of the last to give it up. After all if they're collecting patent royalties, they will likely want to "carry the flag" as long as possible.

David

>Charles Harrison wrote:
>>
>>My last high end product purchase was a Sony HDR-HG3 HDV 1080, their
>>on. They

And I would guess that Canon has plans to continue as well? Doesn't
that include 50% of the video market for consumers?

        So, do we as consumers have a vote?

I recently had my HD fail in my year old Macbook Pro 17. I tried booting up in target disk mode and it did not work. In fact, I was not able to boot up using the Install Disk 1. I took it to the Apple Store, and they were not successful either. They suggested that the disk was telling the EFI to "just hold on, I'll be right with you" and there is no timer to give up on the internal drive. It is really sad that pressing C or D with the Install Disk 1 in the drive was also not successful.

Anyway, the Apple Store replaced my drive and it came back to life. I wonder if this was another motivation to Apple on making it so easy to replace the HD in the new laptops. With my older model, failures like this leave me with a useless piece of equipment. With the new Macs, I can pull out the HD and boot up the laptop with an external disk. I asked the Apple store if I could keep the old hard disk. I tried to mount it in an enclosure and it did not even show up in Disk Utility at all or with "Drive Rescue"

The replacement for Target Disk mode in a failure situation on the new macs is to pull out the drive and stick it into an enclosure.

As an technician who had to repair ibooks with now screen o/p I can assure you that without firewire and T mode my life and the users life would have been disasterous. I could get the user working in about an hour on a new machine without any dismantling. To bad for future mac owners if either of these two options go missing

Mike

Apple used Firewire to solve a capture problem for consumers AND
professionals desiring to use mini-DV tape cameras. Today that
original 'issue' has become less and less of a problem as more and
more consumers are opting for tapeless solutions for capturing motion.
Canon and Sony have both just introduced prosumer full-frame DSLRs
with HD video, and along with several other recent development it is
apparent that their views for the future are to move all consumer/
prosumer video capture to a tapeless capture workflow. What Apple did
in the way of TDM and even IP over Firewire was never meant to be the
primary purpose for providing Firewire. IT was first and foremost a
best of class solution for getting video off a moving tape onto a hard
drive without frame drops. Advantages/disadvantages to tape aside,
consumers by and large prefer tapeless solutions for many reasons:
inconvenience in slow transfer time for tape and the issues of
accidental over-writing on tape among the primary ones.

I service a lot of mac users. Few of them really need Firewire. They
use external drives primarily for backup and for streaming audio for
iTunes or photos for iPhoto and USB2 handles those tasks as easily as
Firewire. I have 4 laptops, all with firewire, but rarely am I in a
situation that would require firewire. Anyone doing serious video work
in the field should be using a pro laptop. The weight/cost difference
is miniscule compared with all the other gear you'd be using.

Jeffrey

On 10/28/08 4:41 AM, "mec1" <mecwenhaston.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> As an technician who had to repair ibooks with now screen o/p I can assure you
> that without firewire and T mode my life and the users life would have been
> disasterous. I could get the user working in about an hour on a new machine
> without any dismantling. To bad for future mac owners if either of these two
> options go missing

Yes, however, the Macbooks are orders of magnitude easier to get to the hard
drive than the iBooks were. So the difficulty of disassembling an iBook
doesn't really apply.

--
John C. Welch