Why no keyboard support for the iPhone/touch

On Oct 13, 2008, at 3:54 PM, Adam C. Engst wrote:

> And I've yet to see a successful alternative input method beyond the
> keyboard for entering text.

I'd love to see a review of ShapeWriter
http://www.shapewriter.com/iphone.html

and/or

Swype
http://www.forwordinput.com/
http://www.techcrunch50.com/2008/conference/presenter.php?presenter=76

Have you tried either of these, Adam?

Interestingly, both appear to be basically the same technology. I
hope that legal wrangling doesn't hamstring its development and
availability.


Randy B. Singer • Mac OS X Routine Maintenance • http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html

On Oct 14, 2008, at 12:31 AM, Randy B. Singer wrote:

>
> On Oct 13, 2008, at 3:54 PM, Adam C. Engst wrote:
>
>> And I've yet to see a successful alternative input method beyond the
>> keyboard for entering text.
>
> I'd love to see a review of ShapeWriter
> http://www.shapewriter.com/iphone.html
>

I tried ShapeWriter, but my fat fingers obscured the letters as I was
moving across the screen. While it could do short words, when I tried
"Stipulation," it kept coming out as "Simpson," "simulation" or some
such. Maybe practice would make it better, but somehow I doubt it. I
even tried the word "demurrer," finally got it to appear on the screen
as something other than "demur" [which took some doing] and added it
to the lexicon. The next try, it made the same mistake -- giving
"demur" or "drummer" for "demurrer."

When using the Apple "keyboard" it has two major faults. First, often
it sticks or freezes. That is, tapping a letter causes the letter to
pop up as it should, but then everything freezes for a while. Second,
even after a year I still hit the letter next to the letter I want, a
factor I believe of my fat fingers. Obviously, with these issues
short messages are best. I have gotten used to it, and it's no worse
than the Treo I gave up for the iPhone. I've even developed a little
speed, too, if the letters don't freeze and I'm unusually good with
those fingers today. Then, there's the issue of the iPhone refusing
to send... but that's something different.

You can generally tell that some people are challenged with their
PDAs. Few send long winded messages, and I marvel at those who do.
Many send one or two word messages... "OK and thanks" or just "No,
thx" -- treating Email like a text message. The vast majority are
somewhere in the middle, sending a few sentences, often truncated and
with missing unessential words to achieve economy in "writing." Note
that there are few posters on this list from the iPhone. That should
tell us something.

The solution for now is a folding Qwerty keyboard that hooks into the
connection at the bottom of the iPhone, just like many speaker sets.
Palm has had them for years. Why not Apple???

Dave Clark

>On Oct 13, 2008, at 3:54 PM, Adam C. Engst wrote:
>
>>And I've yet to see a successful alternative input method beyond the
>>keyboard for entering text.
>
>I'd love to see a review of ShapeWriter
>http://www.shapewriter.com/iphone.html

Downloading it now...

>Swype
>http://www.forwordinput.com/
>http://www.techcrunch50.com/2008/conference/presenter.php?presenter=76
>
>Have you tried either of these, Adam?

This one doesn't seem to be available yet.

cheers... -Adam

--
Adam C. Engst, TidBITS Publisher <http://www.tidbits.com/adam/>

The keyboard idea sounds interesting. Maybe when you plug the wired keyboard into the iPhone an application called Keytext comes up. Like the entire face of the iPhone shows what you are typing. When you want to save you press two fingers on the screen. If a call comes through it is handled normally. When a call is done the keyboard app called Keytext again comes up where you left it. If you unplug the keyboard the text is saved in a clipboard so it can be pasted or saved. The keyboard could even contain AA batteries which would charge the phone while plugged in. A special key sequence on the keyboard would also switch between normal iPhone operation and keyboard mode.

On 15Oct2008, at 00:35, Dave Clark wrote:

>
> On Oct 14, 2008, at 12:31 AM, Randy B. Singer wrote:
>
>>
>> On Oct 13, 2008, at 3:54 PM, Adam C. Engst wrote:
>>
>>> And I've yet to see a successful alternative input method beyond the
>>> keyboard for entering text.
>>
>> I'd love to see a review of ShapeWriter
>> http://www.shapewriter.com/iphone.html
>>
>
> I tried ShapeWriter, but my fat fingers obscured the letters as I was
> moving across the screen. While it could do short words, when I tried
> "Stipulation," it kept coming out as "Simpson," "simulation" or some
> such. Maybe practice would make it better, but somehow I doubt it.

I found Shapewriter to be astonishingly accurate for me (not nearly as
good as a full-size qwerty keyboard, but still accurate). I do have
relatively narrow fingers (for a 6' 3" guy) and am a very fast touch
typist, so that I don't need to see the keyboard to know where things
are.

My problem? I took extensive notes using Shapewriter for maybe 45
minutes during a meeting. The next day I had moderate pain in my index
finger, which persisted for nearly a week. I deleted the app so I
wouldn't be tempted to use it again, though it's possible that with
repeated, stepped use one could overcome that limitation. It hurt me
too much to even want to try.

The other problem, and I believe the reason that there aren't any real
keyboard alternatives for the iPhone, is Apple's refusal to allow
applications to run in the background or otherwise install themselves
at the system level. That means that alternative input methods -- be
they software solutions or hardware devices with associated drivers --
can only work within a stand-alone application, and you cannot even
copy and paste your hard-won text into the application of your choice.
Shapewriter does allow you to email your text or store it as a note
(that can only be accessed from within the Shapewriter application),
but you cannot do anything else with it.

--Ron
www.risley.net

On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 3:31 AM, Randy B. Singer <randymacattorney.com> wrote:
>
> On Oct 13, 2008, at 3:54 PM, Adam C. Engst wrote:
>
>> And I've yet to see a successful alternative input method beyond the
>> keyboard for entering text.
>
> I'd love to see a review of ShapeWriter
> http://www.shapewriter.com/iphone.html

As I've stated before, the problem with ShapeWriter is that your
fingers tend to cover the letters you're aiming for. For example, if I
am typing "line", I can't see the "n" when my finger is on the "i".
This makes it very difficult to aim for the letter you want. If you
don't draw a straight line between letters, ShapeWriter assumes that
you want to include other letters along the path. Long words are
almost impossible to do.

The alternative ShapeWriter keyboard seems to have solved some of
these problems, but they're not eliminated.

I use to use a program on my Palm called "Petal" as in flower petals
that is quite similar to ShapeWriter. You move from letter to letter,
and the shape of your movements told you the letter. The letters were
arranged in a petal shape. Each arrangement had six or eight letters,
and you could shift the arrangements to get different sets of letters.

That advantage of the petal shape is that you didn't run into other
letters as you went from one letter to the other. Plus, it was easy to
get double letters without the system guessing that's what you meant.
You could scrawl the word "g-u-e-s-s" in Petal while in ShapeShifter,
you scrawl "g-u-e-s" and how that ShapeShifter figured out the "s' was
doubled.

Unfortunately, I had to give up Petal when I got my latest Palm, and I
abandoned that about a year ago. It took me a while to learn the
letter arrangement, but once I learned it, I could scrawl about 20 or
so words per minute.


--
David Weintraub
qazwartgmail.com

On Oct 17, 2008, at 12:20 AM, Ron Risley wrote:

> My problem? I took extensive notes using Shapewriter for maybe 45
> minutes during a meeting. The next day I had moderate pain in my index
> finger, which persisted for nearly a week. I deleted the app so I
> wouldn't be tempted to use it again, though it's possible that with
> repeated, stepped use one could overcome that limitation. It hurt me
> too much to even want to try.

It's interesting that you had that problem. I remember a bunch of
years ago there was a stand-alone track-pad product for the
Macintosh. I forget its name, but it did lots of stuff other than
just the same things that a mouse could do. I purchased one and
eagerly went to work with it.

After only one day of use my entire hand ached almost unbearably. I
threw the thing away so that I wouldn't be tempted to use it again
and further injure myself.

I'm thinking that to avoid repetitive stress injuries, and to also
avoid any "fat fingers" problems, that ShapeWriter might benefit from
being used with a stylus. I've never seen anyone use a stylus with
an iPhone or iPod Touch. Can a stylus even work with these devices?

Randy B. Singer • Mac OS X Routine Maintenance • http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html

> My problem? I took extensive notes using Shapewriter for maybe 45
> minutes during a meeting. The next day I had moderate pain in my index
> finger, which persisted for nearly a week. I deleted the app so I
> wouldn't be tempted to use it again, though it's possible that with
> repeated, stepped use one could overcome that limitation. It hurt me
> too much to even want to try.

One standard way to deal with children who want to try smoking or
drinking is to encourage them to smoke all they want, for 45 minutes;
or to drink all they want, and a little extra.

It works exactly as the 45 minutes of Shapewriter did, and they take
up drinking very carefully, a few years later. If they are lucky
they never smoke again after that experiment. I'm not sure how this
works out for all other appetites? But it does indicate that a new
skill should be learnt stepwise.

George

On Oct 18, 2008, at 7:03 AM, Randy B. Singer wrote:

> I'm thinking that to avoid repetitive stress injuries, and to also
> avoid any "fat fingers" problems, that ShapeWriter might benefit from
> being used with a stylus. I've never seen anyone use a stylus with
> an iPhone or iPod Touch. Can a stylus even work with these devices?

I just took the stylus from my Palm Tungsten T5 and tried it on my
iPod Touch. It doesn't work. Ditto with another stylus that's part
of a pen that I have. Presumably someone could make a stylus that
does work, but the ones that are commonly available don't seem to.

On Oct 18, 2008, at 7:03 AM, Randy B. Singer wrote:

> I'm thinking that to avoid repetitive stress injuries, and to also
> avoid any "fat fingers" problems, that ShapeWriter might benefit from
> being used with a stylus. I've never seen anyone use a stylus with
> an iPhone or iPod Touch. Can a stylus even work with these devices?

I've tried my Newton Stylus on the iPod Touch, but get no response at
all - a pity, as I too appear to have 'fat fingers'. Fortunately, I
rarely need to enter much text, but would still be in the market for
an external keyboard.

Roger Henriques
listsrhen.com

On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 7:03 AM, George Wade <georgewadeshaw.ca> wrote:
> One standard way to deal with children who want to try smoking or
> drinking is to encourage them to smoke all they want, for 45 minutes;
>
> [...] I'm not sure how this works out for all other appetites?

I tried the same approach with my kids when it came to sex. It didn't
quite work out the same way as it did with drinking and smoking.

--
David Weintraub
qazwartgmail.com

On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 7:03 AM, Randy B. Singer <randymacattorney.com> wrote:
> I'm thinking that to avoid repetitive stress injuries, and to also
> avoid any "fat fingers" problems, that ShapeWriter might benefit from
> being used with a stylus. I've never seen anyone use a stylus with
> an iPhone or iPod Touch. Can a stylus even work with these devices?
>

You need to get a special stylist. There's one called the Pogo Stylist
that will work:
<http://www.thinkgeek.com/electronics/cell-phone/a31f/>

There's another one called the "SoftTouch":
<http://www.daydeal.com/product.php?productid=21236>

And there's even a review: <http://macenstein.com/default/archives/1594>
--
David Weintraub
qazwartgmail.com

On 18-Oct-2008, at 05:03, Randy B. Singer wrote:
> I've never seen anyone use a stylus with an iPhone or iPod Touch.
> Can a stylus even work with these devices?

Not a regular one; the resistance needs to match that of your finger
tip.

On 18-Oct-08, at 10:30 PM, David Weintraub wrote:

>> One standard way to deal with children who want to try smoking or
>> drinking is to encourage them to smoke all they want, for 45 minutes;
>>
>> [...] I'm not sure how this works out for all other appetites?
>
> I tried the same approach with my kids when it came to sex. It didn't
> quite work out the same way as it did with drinking and smoking.

Then we know what subject matter to use in training teens to text on
iTouch / iPhone with ShapeWriter, don't we? Some supernatural power
will prevent injury while typing in a fascinating area. Only MS will
not know how to profit from the situation..;=)

G...

On Oct 18, 2008, at 10:30 PM, Paul Schinder wrote:

> Presumably someone could make a stylus that
> does work, but the ones that are commonly available don't seem to.

http://www.tenonedesign.com/stylus.php

Yes, some styluses (styli?) will work with iPhone 3Gs, at least. Maybe it's because I've used Widows CE / Windows Mobile for many years but I've adapted so that at present I can type much faster with a stylus than my finger. I also find it useful with some of the drawing apps on my phone.

Chris

In case anybody is interested in knowing of a stylus that works with an iPhone, here's the one I have and like: http://tenonedesign.com/

On Oct 19, 2008, at 1:30 AM, Paul Schinder wrote:

> On Oct 18, 2008, at 7:03 AM, Randy B. Singer wrote:
>
>> I'm thinking that to avoid repetitive stress injuries, and to also
>> avoid any "fat fingers" problems, that ShapeWriter might benefit from
>> being used with a stylus. I've never seen anyone use a stylus with
>> an iPhone or iPod Touch. Can a stylus even work with these devices?
>
> I just took the stylus from my Palm Tungsten T5 and tried it on my
> iPod Touch. It doesn't work. Ditto with another stylus that's part
> of a pen that I have. Presumably someone could make a stylus that
> does work, but the ones that are commonly available don't seem to.

The other day, I was sitting in a local Starbucks and an double
amputee came in. She sat down, her assistant pulled out an iPhone,
and she began to use it with a stylus held in her mouth (texting or
emailing). It looked like she was accomplishing quite a bit---an
unexpected consequence of the iPhone's elegantly simple interface.
(Unexpected because I don't think Apple really had "universal access"
in mind when they designed it.) One instance where Apple's much
maligned onscreen keyboard is an actual advantage---it requires a lot
less pressure than blackberry style mini keyboards.

Anyway, there are styli available for the iPhone. Just search "iphone
stylus" on amazon, and you will get dozens of hits.

Tn

On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 10:30 PM, Roger Henriques <listsrhen.com> wrote:
> On Oct 18, 2008, at 7:03 AM, Randy B. Singer wrote:
>
>> I'm thinking that to avoid repetitive stress injuries, and to also
>> avoid any "fat fingers" problems, that ShapeWriter might benefit from
>> being used with a stylus. I've never seen anyone use a stylus with
>> an iPhone or iPod Touch. Can a stylus even work with these devices?
>
> I've tried my Newton Stylus on the iPod Touch, but get no response at
> all - a pity, as I too appear to have 'fat fingers'. Fortunately, I
> rarely need to enter much text, but would still be in the market for
> an external keyboard.

It's not surprising that a stylus doesn't work. It's not pressure
that creates a tap, it's your magnetic personality. Seriously, I
think it's electro-static, but I'm not sure--could be heat (see
experiment 2).

Experiment: try touching as lightly as you can. Here, I can barely
feel the surface when a gentle-as-possible tap is registered.

Experiment 2: try heating the eraser end of a pencil (remember
pencils and erasers?) a little and see whether it works. (Not
attempted, but I doubt it would work based on a light contact being
necessary.)

Aside, similar buttons became popular in elevators about 3 decades
ago. California banned them because fire conditions triggered them.
Those in fact could be "pressed" by close approach.

  John (who has worked since June 2007 to train himself away from the
idea that pressing harder is better when using iPhone)

I'm thinking that to avoid repetitive stress injuries, and to also 
avoid any "fat fingers" problems, that ShapeWriter might benefit from 
being used with a stylus. I've never seen anyone use a stylus with 
an iPhone or iPod Touch. Can a stylus even work with these devices?

I have one works pretty well. I don't know the flavor.  but google gives many choices.