Making AppleCare Worthwhile: MacBook Pro Battery Replacement

On Jun 25, 2008, at : June 25, 2008328AM, John C. Welch wrote:

> AppleCare is like auto insurance. If you never ever use it, it's a
> waste of
> money.

The analogy to auto insurance fails respecting liability insurance
because most states require you buy it. And I wouldn't want a lot of
people deciding not to buy liability insurance (which protects me from
your negligent driving) because "it's a waste of money."

The real questions are (1) do you need the financial security of
having insurance to pay for certain losses, as in the case of a
computer can you afford to pay for a new hard drive/motherboard/
battery etc 18 months after you bought the computer? (2) The second
question is, do you want to pay the money to fix the device, or can
you afford to just buy a new one? In the case of Apple, there's are
two more questions: (3) Are you benefitted by having Apple's
telephone tech support available in years 2 and 3, or can you do that
on your own through your own resources (friends, online groups, help
websites). And, (4) How likely is your new equipment going to fail/
need support?

Over the years I've found that extended warranties make sense for high
priced computers and motor vehicles. I would not buy one for my
iPhone or iPod because they're replaceable below my acceptable level
of risk. But, I would not want to have to replace my laptop after
just 18 months, or pay for a new hard drive, and I like the security
of having telephone support available occasionally.

If you earn enough to afford to pay for the things that go wrong with
computers and for which you need help, then AppleCare is a waste of
money. As for the rest of the questions, really only you can answer
them. It's very much how much taste do you have for risk, how much
can you afford, do you need or want telephone support on a regular
basis?

The same analysis applies to auto insurance for comprehensive (fire,
theft) and collision coverage (repairs to your own vehicle). A few
people don't even buy this coverage, and if you have an old car (in my
case a motorcycle) you may feel you can take the $1,000 or $2,000
loss. Most of us feel we need the financial security to pay for
damage, theft, fire over a certain deductible amount.

Dave

On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, John W Baxter wrote:

> My general rule is AppleCare for laptops; not for other machines.

The decision with Applecare or any other insurance plan is simple:

Do you prefer the risk of a fixed cost, or
do you prefer the risk of a variable cost?

The variable cost is anywhere from zero (no problems with the machine
over an initial three year period), to the cost of replacing the machine
itself (typically three times the warranty plan or more). If you plan to
replace it within three years anyway, that may be an externality you
don't care about; on the other hand, if you resell a Mac with Applecare
coverage, it transfers with the machine and so boosts the resale value,
so that can be a wash either way.

The fixed cost is known up front, and with few exceptions, isn't going
to change. The warranty doesn't cover things expected to wear out, so
for example if your battery has 400+ charge cycles and no longer runs
the computer, the chemestry is depleted as expected, and the battery
will have to be replaced out of pocket if you want a new one. The
warranty also doesn't cover physical damage, so if you crack the screen
on your laptop, that repair will also come out of your pocket.

The decision then is whether the gamble on the fixed cost is a better
deal than the gamble on the variable cost, but either way is a gamble.
One way to help decide is to look up reliability ratings for the model
you're looking at. One source is http://www.macintouch.com/reliability/,
but the data there is over two years old, and predates Intel hardware.
Then again, http://www.macintouch.com/reliability/macbooks2.html shows
up for Google but isn't linked off their main Reliability page; the data
is still a little dated (December 2006), but it's more pertinent than
the iBook/Powerbook/G5 data for assessing current equipment.

Anyway.

There's also a couple of other things to keep in mind.

Most Mac Geniuses try to minimize repair cost. Assuming you have a
broken laptop that isn't damaged, they can do the repair on site for
parts & labor, whatever that may come to, or they can send it out for an
offsite repair for about $300, regardless of what has to be replaced to
fix it. For a $1000 logic board, the $300 depot repair will be 1/3 the
cost it would be otherwise. Since Applecare averages around $300, the
rule of thumb is if it needs one offsite repair in three years, then you
break even, and if it needs anything else, you come out ahead.

(For desktops, off-site repair isn't an option, so the considerations
there don't apply. Also, most countries other than the US don't have off
site repair options for laptops, and even in the USA, the trend is to
try to do as many repairs on site as possible, so they'll avoid the
depot repair if they can. But that said, the first instinct is to try to
minimize the cost to the customer, so if offsite is a cheaper option,
they'll usually offer it -- ask!)

Also, if the machine develops a history of serious hardware repairs,
there's the possibility that it could be replaced with a new one. There
isn't a clear cut rule for what machines become eligible for this, but
it does happen to some small fraction of machines. In my case, I had a
dual CPU 1.8ghz G5 tower replaced with a dual-core 2.3ghz G5 for free
after a series of repairs -- logic board, CPUs, hard drive, etc --
failed to resolve issues it was having. (My only regret was that two
weeks after getting my G5 replaced, the Mac Pro came out; if I could
have put up with the crashes for a couple more weeks... but oh well, the
new G5 has been trouble-free and plenty fast for my needs.)

> However, of course, in terms of construction, the Mini and the iMac
> are much more like laptops than like desktops, and I haven't decided
> in the case of my new iMac. I'll probably add AppleCare near the end
> of the first year.

Just to clear up a possible misconception, Applecare starts when the
*computer* was purchased, *not* when the warranty was purchased.

You can wait until the last minute to buy Applecare, but you have to
register before the first year is up, and you get two more years from
then, not three. You *cannot* get Applecare after the original warranty
expires, so if you're on the fence about it, make your decision one way
or the other by the 11th month, as the option will go away by the 12th.

(I forgot to get it for my new G5, as I hadn't realized a year
had gone by already; when I asked about it a week after the warranty
expired, it was too late. Luckily, it has been much more stable.)



--
Chris Devers
http://chrisdevers.vox.com/

On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Chris Devers wrote:

> The decision with Applecare or any other insurance plan is simple:
>
> Do you prefer the risk of a fixed cost, or
> do you prefer the risk of a variable cost?

And... I forgot to mention Plan C.

If you're the sort of person that just Never gets extended warranties,
that's fine, you don't have to.

But one thing you might want to consider is the implicit protection plan
you may get from your credit card company.

Some of the cards -- American Express in particular, but I've also heard
of it with some CaptialOne cards, among others -- have provisions for
covering some or all of the cost of repair or replacement of products
purchased with the card. Depending on what they offer, this may be
available even if the repair wouldn't have been covered by the original
warranty, whether because of damage or because the warranty expired.

If you're planning a computer purchase and have a choice of payment
options, you might want to look into this before buying, as some cards
have provisions like this, and others definitely do not. All other
things being equal, buy with the card with built-in purchase protection.


--
Chris Devers
http://chrisdevers.vox.com/

Apple Care is also a good idea for iPhones. Apple has given me 2
replacement phones, no questions asked. So now I have to decide before
my Apple Care runs out on June 29 if I will buy Apple Care on my
current iPhone or buy the new iPhone early next month.

John

Sent from my iPhone (so don't blame me for spelling mistakes)

This article was the incentive I needed to finally call Apple about my 2 bad MacBook Pro batteries from late 2006. They had a cycle counts under 200. At first I was told, too bad... batteries are consumables only under warranty for 12 months. Fortunately I had the reference to the MacBook Pro Battery Update 1.2 http://www.apple.com/support/macbook_macbookpro/batteryupdate/ That specifically talks about extended repair coverage, so they checked into it. Finally they came back and said that because of AppleCare, any battery under 300 cycle counts is under warranty for the AppleCare period.

Lessons learned: AppleCare does have some extra perqs. And as Jeff wrote, be prepared with all the information when you call. The person on the other end might have less info than you.

And, as someone who sells Macs and AppleCare, I think both the buy and don't buy sides have merit. However I find that people who buy AppleCare are happier long term. The generally forget about what they paid upfront, and if nothing goes wrong, there's not a lot to complain about. But for those who don't buy it, if something should go wrong, they feel the pain.

On 6/25/08 4:59 PM, "Dave Clark" <dc1999gmail.com> wrote:

>> AppleCare is like auto insurance. If you never ever use it, it's a
>> waste of
>> money.
>
> The analogy to auto insurance fails respecting liability insurance
> because most states require you buy it. And I wouldn't want a lot of
> people deciding not to buy liability insurance (which protects me from
> your negligent driving) because "it's a waste of money."

The requirement issue is a strawman.

If you never ever get in an auto accident of any kind, then regardless of
legal requirements, the premiums you paid were wasted. You may have HAD to
pay those premiums, but they were wasted nonetheless.


--
John C. Welch

So unlike all the other AT&T phones, the extended warrenty is through Apple, and not AT&T's third party insurer? This is a pretty important point since AT&T like to push the $4.95/month/phone insurance plan.

Frank McBride

  Chris Devers <cdeverspobox.com> wrote:
>The fixed cost is known up front, and with few exceptions, isn't going
>to change. The warranty doesn't cover things expected to wear out, so
>for example if your battery has 400+ charge cycles and no longer runs
>the computer, the chemestry is depleted as expected, and the battery
>will have to be replaced out of pocket if you want a new one.

This has not been my experience.
I have had several batteries replaced under AppleCare.
--
-- Marshall

On Thu, 26 Jun 2008, Marshall Clow wrote:

> Chris Devers <cdeverspobox.com> wrote:
> > The fixed cost is known up front, and with few exceptions, isn't going
> > to change. The warranty doesn't cover things expected to wear out, so
> > for example if your battery has 400+ charge cycles and no longer runs
> > the computer, the chemestry is depleted as expected, and the battery
> > will have to be replaced out of pocket if you want a new one.
>
> This has not been my experience.
> I have had several batteries replaced under AppleCare.

It depends on the circumstances.

* If the battery has under 300 cycles and has significantly degraded
performance, that's more likely be eligible for replacment.

* If it has 500+ cycles and significantly degraded performance, it's
beyond its expected lifespan, and unlikely to be eligible.

Modifying this somewhat is the fact that some of the batteries have had
repair extension programs that give more coverage than it would have
otherwise. This has happened with both the original Macbook Pro and
Macbook batteries as well as some of the Powerbook batteries.

In any case, think of it like a car's "bumper to bumper" warranty: while
most things are covered, there are some components expected to wear out
that are specifically excluded from coverage, like batteries, or on a
car, things like tires, air & oil filters, etc.


--
Chris Devers

AppleCare seems much less necessary, since it's fairly inexpensive to repair most items that are prone to failure.

I used to religiously get AppleCare for all my Macs, after I suffered a $2,000 (!) logic board failure on my Quadra 840AV. (Yeah, 2 G's for the replacement logic board was still cheaper than a new Mac) Apple had a stranglehold on all the parts and charged exorbitant rates for even the simplest repairs.

Now things are different. Most Mac parts are the same as are in PCs, so the most typical failure points (drives, power supplies) can be replaced with off-the-shelf items. Even the more obscure parts like screens and case plastics can be found in large quantities on eBay.

Even if you can't manage the repair yourself, there's plenty of competent independent techs out there who will handle it for $60-90 plus parts.

Sure, if I DO have a logic board failure again, I'll be out about half the price of my MacBook, plus some labor, but it CAN be repaired at less than Apple Repair Center prices. But chances are, I won't have to replace more than a hard drive or two, and that's far cheaper than AppleCare, plus I can get a nice storage upgrade for my trouble.

-- Nik

nikinik.net | http://inik.net | http://notions.inik.net

While I generally agree that the biggest question is laptop v.
desktop, there's a little more behind it than that.

My wife gets a new laptop every four years or so. They almost never
go further from the living room than the dining room, and are used
for just a few hours at day. I believe that she's had one problem, a
failed hard drive at the around the 4 year mark (i.e. out of
warranty). When she needs to fidget, she knits, having put the
computer aside.

I get a new laptop about every 3 years. They go from my office at
home to the living room every day. They also go virtually everywhere
I go. That means being slipped into a bag (Timbuk2 Commute) a couple
times at least. That means the bag being put on the floor of a subway
car (between my feet) and all those vibrations. That being pushed and
hit by all the commuters around me. That means swinging around as I
walk. And I use it for many hours every day (10+?). When I need to
fidget, I play tetris.

My laptops go in for repair at least once a year. Screens. Batteries.
Flukiness. Pitted bottom assembly top pieces. God knows what. Even a
bad drive in warranty.

Using a computer, with all the electricity and heat, strains a
computer. Moving it around, with jostling and vibrations, would
strain anything.

So, if you are going to leave the computer on a desk -- be it a
desktop or a laptop -- to use for just a few hours a week, AppleCare
is less likely to be worth the cost. But if you are using the hell of
your laptop, and lugging it around everywhere, that heavy wear well
could cause parts to fail that might not with lighter use. And that
is when AppleCare is likely to more than pay for itself.
--
=Alex Hoffman
Leadership, Policy & Politics
Teachers College, Columbia University

On Jun 26, John C. Welch wrote:
>If you never ever get in an auto accident of any kind, then regardless of
>legal requirements, the premiums you paid were wasted. You may have HAD to
>pay those premiums, but they were wasted nonetheless.

"wasted" in what sense?

1. During the policy period for which the premiums paid, you
received the peace of mind of knowing that IF you were in an
accident, the policy would cover all identified costs beyond a stated
deductible. Perhaps peace of mind is worthless to you, but there are
a lot of people to whom it is valuable.

2. After deduction of administrative costs, the premiums you paid
were aggregated with those of many other accident-free drivers to pay
the stated benefits to those drivers who were not so lucky. From
their viewpoint, your money helped to rescue them from financial
disaster, and so it was not "wasted".

If by "wasted" you mean that _you_ didn't get any financial return
for your money, then I suppose that you don't carry any life
insurance on yourself. Obviously, once you're dead it wouldn't
benefit you, so it must be a waste of money that you could put to
"better" use while you're alive.

Let me underscore your point, add italics, maybe a little ALL CAPs.

My MacBook Pro screen broke 1 week after the warranty expired. That's $600. I was thinking about just getting a new mac, but then it seemed to sad to have an old, broken MBP lying around, and also my MBP is only a year old and really excellent, so I paid for it.

AppleCare would definitely have been worth it. AppleCare just gives you insurance that you will have a functioning laptop for 3 years. Given that any repair no matter how marginal is extremely expensive for Macs, and nearly all the parts are custom, I think chances that you will use your AppleCare are high.

Especially if you are like me and use the computer every day, and carry it around every day. The MacBook Pro is a beautiful machine - it's the smallest 15" laptop, and the most powerful. That comes at a price - the margins for errors are very small. There is not much reduncancy in any part. It also gets too hot, especially if you live in a hot country. It's like a highly tuned sports car, things go wrong rather easily. Then there's the risk that Apple just made a mistake with the design. All this is none of your worry with AppleCare.

Apple knows why they charge $350 for a MacBook Pro AppleCare package - it's because these things break! Next time I will most definitely get it.

Final word on the battery - there seems to be a design error in these - most people I know return the battery before the warranty is over.

On Aug 11, 2008, at 3:55 AM, nikster wrote:

> My MacBook Pro screen broke 1 week after the warranty expired.
> That's $600. I was thinking about just getting a new mac, but then
> it seemed to sad to have an old, broken MBP lying around, and also
> my MBP is only a year old and really excellent, so I paid for it.
>
> AppleCare would definitely have been worth it. AppleCare just gives
> you insurance that you will have a functioning laptop for 3 years.
> Given that any repair no matter how marginal is extremely expensive
> for Macs, and nearly all the parts are custom, I think chances that
> you will use your AppleCare are high.
>
>


The original and Apple Care warranty both exclude "accidents,"
"misuse" or "abuse." While it's comforting to believe that just about
any calamity would be covered, I don't think that's true. If the unit
is dropped and the screen breaks, or the HD is damaged, the user might
be without any coverage at all. Read the Warranty fine print under
"EXCLUSIONS AND LIMITATIONS."

On the other hand, a typical small business or homeowners property
insurance policy might (I emphasize might) cover an accident that
damages your laptop. For example, my business policy covered my
recently stolen MacBookPro. Apple certainly would not nor did I
expect it to.

Nonetheless, the Apple Care warranty is worth the money just to have
available telephone support. Things go wrong, defects happen, and
help is only a telephone call away. Compared to any other major
manufacturer's support, Apple is far and away the best.

Dave

On Mon, 11 Aug 2008, nikster wrote:

> My MacBook Pro screen broke 1 week after the warranty expired. That's
> $600. I was thinking about just getting a new mac, but then it seemed
> to sad to have an old, broken MBP lying around, and also my MBP is
> only a year old and really excellent, so I paid for it.

Are you in the USA?

What does "screen broke" mean?

If the screen is damaged -- cracked, dented, impacted, etc, with visible
glass fracture lines on the panel -- then a new screen for a MBP is well
over $1000, nearly $1500. Applecare will *never* cover this repair, so
whether it's 5 weeks old or 5 years old, it's still out of your pocket.

If it "just stopped working" -- no backlight, no image, etc, but with no
visible signs of physical or liquid damage -- then a US Apple Store
should be able to have it done as an offsite repair for $320 if it's out
of warranty/Applecare, or free otherwise with warranty/Applecare.

I don't get where the $600 came from, unless you went to a third party,
or are outside the USA. It's surprisingly high on one end, by about
double cost, and surprisingly low on the other end, by about half cost.
 
> Final word on the battery - there seems to be a design error in these
> - most people I know return the battery before the warranty is over.

Well, it's a new technology.

The older batteries used lithium ion (LiON) cells. If you break apart
the shell -- DON'T DO THAT -- you'll find what looks roughly like a
bunch of cylindrical AA cell styled batteries, as this X-ray of an old
titanium Powerbook illustrates (battery is at lower-left corner):

http://gallery.future-i.com/tech-bits/laptop/pic:powerbook-xray/

Copious LiON info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion

The Intel laptops, as well as the last-generation 15" & 17" Powerbooks,
use a newer lithium polymer (LiPo) technology, which is supposed to
offer several advantages -- cheaper to build; can be packed flatter
inside the battery shell, allowing thinner designs; lighter; higher
energy density, allowing longer run times; higher "cycle count" before
the battery can't retain a charge anymore; etc -- but it's still a
younger, developing technology, with growing pains to sort out.

Copious LiPo info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-polymer

Anyway, it looks like if you draw down a LiPo battery too low, it will
lose the ability to recharge back to 100%. There's supposed to be
circuitry on the battery itself to prevent this from happening, but at a
guess, with some of the first generation batteries, it happens anyway.

If this happens with your battery -- won't charge to 100%, or won't
charge at all -- bring it in and you may be able to get it swapped out.


--
Chris Devers