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SE/30 in Ethernet LAN![[solohorn]](/webx/?30@@1) solohorn (apparently) - 02:56pm May 30, 2006 PSTvia emailHi everyone!
A few weeks ago I got to thinking how cool the old SE/30 looked, and how great it
would be to own one again. I started reading up on lowendmac and did a few
Google searches which gave me the idea of how much fun it would be to put a G4 mini inside an empty SE/30. After a few days searching on eBay, I
finally came across a few SE/30s for the right price and consequently I now have
one working SE/30, one empty SE/30 case and one working SE which is winging its
way to me right now.
My next problem is going to be a bit like eating out in those restaurants where
the fish are displayed in a great big tank and we are asked to choose which one
is for the chop! I really don't have the heart to rip the innards out of a
perfectly good working computer. I have therefore decided to keep the two
working machines and use one as a server and the other as an example of just how
good System 6 and 7 were! However, to do this and for the exercise to be
worthwhile, I need to be able to put them both onto my local LAN, either wired
or even wireless if thats possible.
I have read that there are a couple of PDS slot Ethernet adapters and also a
SCSI - Ethernet adapter. However I have not been able to locate either of these
here in Germany and the ones elsewhere are far more expensive than the cost of
the two SE/30s together.
My question is, is there a cheap way to connect to my Ethernet based LAN using
the ADB ports or at a pinch could I do something with a null modem? I'm not
really clued up on networking with older macs anymore, despite Adams Internet
Starter Kit being bedtime reading back in the good old days! so if asomebody
has an idea on what I should do to get connected, I would be grateful.
[No, you can't do any networking through the ADB port. Null modem also won't work, but you could run LocalTalk to the printer port and then have a LocalTalk-to-Ethernet bridge connect it to your network. At 230.4 Kbps, LocalTalk isn't horribly slow compared to most Internet connections. Search back in TidBITS on LocalTalk and you'll probably find some things. Of course, someone here might have a PDS Ethernet card they'd be happy to send you too! -Adam]
Francis Pressland
jdougherty (apparently)
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Jun 1, 2006 8:55 am
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Re: SE/30 in Ethernet LAN
I believe I have a couple of the SCSI to Ethernet adapters (DAYNA,
IIIRC). I’d be happy to mail a few; I am reasonably sure I’ll not need them.
JHD
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Tomoharu Nishino (apparently)
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Jun 1, 2006 8:55 am
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Re: SE/30 in Ethernet LAN
Glad to see that there are others out there who think there was
something really special about the design of the original Macs.
> A few weeks ago I got to thinking how cool the old SE/30 looked,
> and how great it
> would be to own one again.
In my parents' home on my old desk, there still sits my first
computer---an SE/30. Haven't used it since 1993 (when I moved to a
Powerbook 170) but some how I can't part with it. The last time I
was there in December, I tried flipping the switch. The HD was long
dead, but the screen did light up and I ultimately got that waiting-
for-a-system disk screen.
Of course my system floppy disks are long since dead. But I was
surprised to find that Apple still makes System 6 and 7 (and their
respective updates) available for download. Entire system in <5MB!
So if I can find an external SCSI HD for a reasonable price, I might
try reinstalling System 7 to see if it will really boot.
> However, to do this and for the exercise to be
> worthwhile, I need to be able to put them both onto my local LAN,
> either wired
> or even wireless if thats possible.
>
> [No, you can't do any networking through the ADB port. Null modem
> also won't work, but you could run LocalTalk to the printer port
> and then have a LocalTalk-to-Ethernet bridge connect it to your
> network. ... ! -Adam]
I too was looking around for a localtalk-to-ethernet bridge, and I
was surprised to find that Asante still makes their AsanteTalk
product. $100+ retail, but you should be able to find one on eBay
for much less. Should work with the SE/30.
Now if I can only find an old copy of the Pyro! screen saver...
Tomoharu
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gpowell (apparently)
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Jun 1, 2006 9:04 am
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Re: SE/30 in Ethernet LAN
Francis:
I have a PDS Ethernet card never used and gathering dust on a shelf. I
would be glad to send it to you for just postage. Your project is most
interesting.
Contact me.
George Powell
gpowell  aol.com
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Roger Henriques
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Jun 2, 2006 9:39 am
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Re: SE/30 in Ethernet LAN
On May 30, 2006, at 5:56 PM, Francis Pressland wrote:
> A few weeks ago I got to thinking how cool the old SE/30 looked,
> and how great it
> would be to own one again
Nice to see I'm not the only one keeping an SE30 (and a Mac Classic2)
around. My SE30 needs a new HD, and I may get around to it one day.
Being a true packrat, I still have external SCSI CD readers, burners,
zip drives and HD's lying around, not to mention a Duo 2300 with
dock, so it's day will come - maybe this winter! Hmmmm, maybe I
should start a museum of obsolete technology, just add in all my film
cameras and wet darkroom stuff...
It does have a PDS Enet card installed, and I used to have several
more - next time I go in my basement, I'll see if I can actually find
them. If so, they are definitely available.
Roger Henriques
rdh at rhen dot com
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Nigel Stanger (apparently)
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Jun 2, 2006 9:39 am
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via email - Dunedin, New Zealand |
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Re: SE/30 in Ethernet LAN
On 2/6/2006 3:55 AM, "Google Kreme" <gkreme gmail.com> spake thus:
> The only choice I've been able to find is a SCSI<->Ethernet
> Bridge, though I've been told that even THAT won't work, since OS X
> can't talk the old Appletalk and the SE can't talk anything but (No
> NFS, SMB, etc).
Surely you could install MacTCP on the SE? Of course, you would then need to
find old versions of Fetch/Anarchie or similar (and maybe StuffIt as well so
that resource forks don't get hosed by the transfer), but it should
definitely be feasible. (Or did MacTCP require an '020 or something? I can't
remember.)
--
Nigel Stanger, Dunedin, NEW ZEALAND.
http://xri.net/=nigel.stanger
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chuck goolsbee (apparently)
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Jun 2, 2006 9:39 am
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via email - chuck goolsbee |
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Re: SE/30 in Ethernet LAN
>though I've been told that even THAT won't work, since OS X
>can't talk the old Appletalk
Yes it can!
System Preferences -> Network -> {active network} -> AppleTalk
Only one physical port can run AppleTalk, (IIRC no
multilink/multihoming was carried forward from Open Transport into
OSX) but AppleTalk does still work in OSX.
>and the SE can't talk anything but (No
>NFS, SMB, etc).
Yes it can!
System 6 & 7
Control Panels -> MacTCP
System 7.5 and later (Open Transport):
Control Panels -> TCP/IP
Mind you, MacTCP wasn't *bundled* with the OS, and you had to buy
add-on higher layer protocols (for NFS, FTP, HTTP, etc), but finding
this stuff "lying around" shouldn't be too hard. =)
Open Transport is still downloadable from Apple last I checked.
Trivia: digital.forest's roots were in multiprotocol networks and
Internet Access over TCP/IP-tunnelled-in-AppleTalk. A lot has changed
in 12 years, but I still carry a lot of that knowledge in the deep
dark recesses of my brain.
Random thoughts: AppleTalk was indeed an elegant protocol, light
years ahead of its time. AppleTalk Phase2 cured most of the perceived
ills, and the sole remaining issue IIRC was less-than optimized MTU
for the available Layer 2 options. Requiescat In Pace.
--
Chuck Goolsbee V.P. Technical Operations
_________________________________________________________________
digital.forest Phone: +1-877-720-0483, x2001
where Internet solutions grow Int'l: +1-206-838-1630
*** celebrating eleven years of service 7/12/1994 - 7/12/2005 ***
12101 Tukwila International Blvd Fax: +1-206-838-3749
Suite 410 http://www.forest.net
Seattle, WA 98168 email: cg forest.net
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hank.harken (apparently)
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Jun 2, 2006 9:39 am
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Re: SE/30 in Ethernet LAN
>My question is, is there a cheap way to connect to my Ethernet based
LAN using
>the ADB ports or at a pinch could I do something with a null modem? I'm not
>really clued up on networking with older macs anymore, despite Adams Internet
>Starter Kit being bedtime reading back in the good old days! so if asomebody
>has an idea on what I should do to get connected, I would be grateful.
You might be able to rig something up using Localtalk on the SE/30 and
connect to an Ethernet network using Sustainable Networks' software bridge.
This probably mean having another "classic" OS machine acting as a link
and running the bridge software.
I was on the Sustainable Networks' site last month and it appeared the
software was still available for download.
- Hank
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swyant (apparently)
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Jun 2, 2006 9:39 am
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Re: SE/30 in Ethernet LAN
On Jun 1, 2006, at 9:04 AM, George Powell wrote:
> Francis:
> I have a PDS Ethernet card never used and gathering dust on a shelf. I
> would be glad to send it to you for just postage. Your project is most
> interesting.
And I have an Appletalk-to-Ethernet bridge, also still in a box.
Also available for postage.
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Lewis Butler (apparently)
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Jun 3, 2006 12:45 pm
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Re: SE/30 in Ethernet LAN
On 02 Jun 2006, at 10:39 , chuck goolsbee wrote:
>> though I've been told that even THAT won't work, since OS X
>> can't talk the old Appletalk
>
> Yes it can!
>
> System Preferences -> Network -> {active network} -> AppleTalk
As I understood it, that Appletalk only worked with MacOS 9.
I know there was something about not being able to network to older
machines.
>> and the SE can't talk anything but (No
>> NFS, SMB, etc).
>
> Yes it can!
>
> System 6 & 7
> Control Panels -> MacTCP
>
> System 7.5 and later (Open Transport):
> Control Panels -> TCP/IP
I don't think the Mac SE can run MacTCP. Remember, the SE was a
68000, not a 68030.
> Open Transport is still downloadable from Apple last I checked.
Which I think also requires a 68020 or better.
NB: I am talking about my SE, not OP's SE/30.
--
Is this the light of a new day dawning? A future bright that you can
walk in? No, it's just another Monday Morning, do it all over again!
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Michael Logue
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Jun 5, 2006 6:46 am
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Re: SE/30 in Ethernet LAN
If nobody else is interested I would love to have the Appletalk-to-Ethernet bridge. I could use it to connect a DECLASER to both my Macmini and my PM7200 and my PM7100. Let me know what I need to send you if Francis Pressland doesn't want it. I am a great believer in using old equipment. I have several video cards, USB cards, Sonnet accelerators and other stuff I have aquired over the years, including a couple of Mac II's, an SE/30 and an SE, and a 512 Mac. I don't know what to do with a lot of the stuff, but I cannot bring myself to throw them out. Michael Logue <mlogue madison.main.nc.us>
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Carl S Zimmerman (apparently)
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Jun 5, 2006 6:46 am
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Re: SE/30 in Ethernet LAN
While I can't answer for SE class machines, I can provide some
supporting detail for other oldies based on my home Ethernet LAN.
On Jun 3, 2006, Lewis Butler wrote:
>> System Preferences -> Network -> {active network} -> AppleTalk
>
>As I understood it, that Appletalk only worked with MacOS 9.
>
>I know there was something about not being able to network to older
>machines.
...
>> System 7.5 and later (Open Transport):
>> Control Panels -> TCP/IP
This works for MacOS 8.1 and 8.6, both of which have AppleTalk as
well as TCP/IP. Just tell AppleTalk to connect via Ethernet, using
Contral Panels -> AppleTalk.
OS X 10.3.x also has AppleTalk as well as TCP/IP. So I can do file
sharing from 10.3.9 to 8.1 (browse in Finder window -> Network) _or_
from 8.1 to 10.3.9 (using Chooser -> AppleShare).
(Oddly, 10.3.9 can connect to 8.6 only as a registered user, not as a
guest; I have no idea why.)
However, I cannot connect from 10.4.2 to 8.1. Although the 10.4.2
system can see the presence of the 8.1 system on the network,
attempting to connect to it produces an error message, "This file
server uses an incompatible version of the AFP protocol. You cannot
connect to it." Since 10.4.x does still have an AppleTalk option in
the Network control panel, this indicates that the "current" version
of AppleTalk is not backward compatible with the previous version.
Odd, that.
But I _can_ connect in the other direction - from 8.1 to 10.4.2.
This tells me that 8.1 can use either AppleTalk or TCP/IP to attach
to a network server, and that in this case it must be using TCP/IP.
This also tells me that when 8.x announces its presence on the
network, it identifies itself as an AppleTalk server, not a TCP/IP
server. Otherwise, 10.4.2 would be able to connect to it with TCP/IP
rather than with AppleTalk.
That's my perception of some of the relationships; I'm open to
correction if I've misinterpreted the evidence.
BTW, I bypassed MacOS 9, so I can't address those relationships.
Carl
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Nigel Stanger (apparently)
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Jun 6, 2006 9:23 am
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via email - Dunedin, New Zealand |
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Re: SE/30 in Ethernet LAN
On 6/6/2006 1:46 AM, "Carl S Zimmerman" <csz_stl swbell.net> spake thus:
> Since 10.4.x does still have an AppleTalk option in
> the Network control panel, this indicates that the "current" version
> of AppleTalk is not backward compatible with the previous version.
This is a legacy of when Apple switched from "old AppleTalk" to AppleTalk
over TCP/IP. It was pretty well documented at the time. As you've found, a
"new AppleTalk" machine cannot connect to an "old AppleTalk" machine (sounds
like old vs. new Coke :), but the other way works fine. I can't remember the
technical details but it clearly has to do with acting as a server vs.
acting as a client.
--
Nigel Stanger, Dunedin, NEW ZEALAND.
http://xri.net/=nigel.stanger
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jpdunn1365 (apparently)
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Jun 7, 2006 11:39 am
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Re: SE/30 in Ethernet LAN
I have a 45Meg Syquest drive with about 6 cartidges I would be willing to send for the price of shipping...
If you or anyone is interested....
It does still work - I fired it up to see if any data was stil on the disks that I needed. I had used this on a Mac SE/30 and a IIci.
--
JP Dunn
Makanda, IL
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dr (apparently)
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Jun 8, 2006 12:09 am
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Re: SE/30 in Ethernet LAN
Google Kreme wrote:
> On 02 Jun 2006, at 10:39 , chuck goolsbee wrote:
>>> though I've been told that even THAT won't work, since OS X
>>> can't talk the old Appletalk
>>
>> Yes it can!
>> System Preferences -> Network -> {active network} -> AppleTalk
>
> As I understood it, that Appletalk only worked with MacOS 9.
> I know there was something about not being able to network to older
> machines.
>
>>> and the SE can't talk anything but (No
>>> NFS, SMB, etc).
>> Yes it can!
>> System 6 & 7
>> Control Panels -> MacTCP
>>
>> System 7.5 and later (Open Transport):
>> Control Panels -> TCP/IP
>
> I don't think the Mac SE can run MacTCP. Remember, the SE was a
> 68000, not a 68030.
>> Open Transport is still downloadable from Apple last I checked.
>
> Which I think also requires a 68020 or better.
> NB: I am talking about my SE, not OP's SE/30.
>
Older macs can share via AppleTalk. OS X clients can connect to servers
via AppleTalk. LocalTalk is another universe and without a bridge I
don't think OS X will handle it in any way. Especially since it needed
serial ports. :)
I recently helped someone move all their files from a system with 7.0 or
7.5 to an iMac with Tiger. Took me a while to remember the above
information. When the light bulb went on I turned on sharing on the old
box and put an alias of the hard drive into the public folder on the old
box. Then we connected to it from the iMac and dragged things over a few
1000 files at a time. (More caused the old system to lock up.)
What WAS dropped in the move to OS X was that NO Apple products would
support sharing or other server services via AppleTalk. Some of the
developers commented on how the code base was a spaghetti bowl of
recursive Pascal code and would have needed to be translated in concept,
language, and API usage. The implication was it was an easy call to make.
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Mihajlo
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Jun 10, 2006 1:45 pm
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Re: SE/30 in Ethernet LAN
Hi!
This is my first post on this site, but the problem is months old.
I`m actually looking to hook up my se/30 to ethernet, and I`ve been searching for ANY hardware that can do that, with no results. Until I
found people with similar problems :) I know that it is a funny thing to do, hook up an 15 years old computer onto the internet, but I just cant help it.. I see that there are folks wiling to give away this bizzare piece of hardware, and if you are still wiling to do that, I promise I will take great care of the donated ethernet card :)
Thanks for listening, Mihajlo mihajlo.jevtic gmail.com
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solohorn (apparently)
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Jun 11, 2006 7:02 pm
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Re: SE/30 in Ethernet LAN
Hello everyone!
First let me say a great big thanks to all those of you who have offered me
hardware to get my SE30 networked. I am always amazed at the generosity of mac
folk. I will reply in private to everyone sometime this week when I get a chance
to sit and read my mail, however, in the meantime I have found a couple of cards
on eBay, and as long as the US Postal service manages to decipher my German
address properly I will hopefully be able to post a message to the list using
the SE30.
After I've had an opportunity to read all the answers you have given, I'll come
back with the inevitable questions.
Thanks again!
Francis
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hank.harken (apparently)
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Jun 13, 2006 9:42 am
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Re: SE/30 in Ethernet LAN
>This is my first post on this site, but the problem is months old.
>I`m actually looking to hook up my se/30 to ethernet, and I`ve been
>searching for ANY hardware that can do that, with no results. Until I
>found people with similar problems :) I know that it is a funny thing to
>do, hook up an 15 years old computer onto the internet, but I just cant
>help it.. I see that there are folks wiling to give away this bizzare
>piece of hardware, and if you are still wiling to do that, I promise I
>will take great care of the donated ethernet card :)
In addition to the other solutions mentioned here, Asante still lists
an Ethernet-Localtalk hardware bridge on their web pages...
http://www.asante.com/products/CardsAdapters/AsanteTalk.asp
- Hank
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remy.tourment (apparently)
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Jun 14, 2006 8:45 am
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Re: SE/30 in Ethernet LAN
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keesh (apparently)
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Jun 20, 2006 9:40 am
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Re: SE/30 in Ethernet LAN
On 3-jun-2006, at 21:45, Google Kreme wrote:
> On 02 Jun 2006, at 10:39 , chuck goolsbee wrote:
>>> though I've been told that even THAT won't work, since OS X
>>> can't talk the old Appletalk
>>
>> Yes it can!
>>
>> System Preferences -> Network -> {active network} -> AppleTalk
>
> As I understood it, that Appletalk only worked with MacOS 9.
>
> I know there was something about not being able to network to older
> machines.
>
>>> and the SE can't talk anything but (No
>>> NFS, SMB, etc).
>>
>> Yes it can!
>>
>> System 6 & 7
>> Control Panels -> MacTCP
>>
>> System 7.5 and later (Open Transport):
>> Control Panels -> TCP/IP
>
> I don't think the Mac SE can run MacTCP. Remember, the SE was a
> 68000, not a 68030.
I think it can. My SE 68000 had PPP and MacTCP. I used it for email,
news (usenet), ftp. Remember Archie? The WWW made an end to it. Web
pages on a 1 bit monochrome display were most of the time unreadable.
It was connected via a modem, the localtalk-to-ethernet thing would
probably work (it did on my Duo, 68030 though).
Kees
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u.huth (apparently)
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Jun 21, 2006 10:23 am
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Re: SE/30 in Ethernet LAN
>>
>> System Preferences -> Network -> {active network} -> AppleTalk
>
> As I understood it, that Appletalk only worked with MacOS 9.
>
I can access my daughter's PowerBook with OS 10.4.4 just fine from my G3
running Mac OS 8.6 using an AppleTalk (EtherTalk) connection. The other way
round doesn't work, as OS X complains about some software component being
too old... (Don't have the name handy right now.)
Udo
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