Eyestrain problems with LCDs

I use a so-called "Executive" type of lens here in Lima, Peru. It's
basically a half and half bifocal. The upper-half I use for my
computer, a long-necked iMac and with head a bit tilted down for my
Powerbook, and the lower half lens I use for close-up reading, which
I find is wonderful!
ss

[Since we've gotten very far from the original post about LCDs, I think we should begin winding down the comments on various kinds of eyeglasses. -Joe]

I'm 38, don't wear glasses, and am also experiencing severe eyestrain with my new Viewsonic 20". For the past three years I've been relying on my lovely PowerBook G4 15" screen, but flash and photoshop palettes have driven me to buy more screen real estate.

I've been working long hours on the monitor (though not more than a typical day on the laptop) and my eyeballs are red and swollen. They feel rough and gritty. This is a new experience for me and I'm concerned. It's not a problem of blurriness or squinting-- but pain and puffiness.

I've set up the monitor ergonomically (arms length away, top just above eye level, tilted back, lowered brightness to 30, conrast is at 70 -anything above washes out the color, no fluorescents or window glare).

Any ideas, suggestions? I was even wondering if there are places you can get the radiation checked or something. I love the size, so sad if this won't work for me, but not willing to sacrifice my eyesight.

Thanks in advance!

On 21/08/2006, at 8:53 AM, molly haselhorst wrote:

> I'm 38, don't wear glasses, and am also experiencing severe
> eyestrain with my new Viewsonic 20". For the past three years I've
> been relying on my lovely PowerBook G4 15" screen, but flash and
> photoshop palettes have driven me to buy more screen real estate.
>
> I've been working long hours on the monitor (though not more than a
> typical day on the laptop) and my eyeballs are red and swollen.
> They feel rough and gritty. This is a new experience for me and I'm
> concerned. It's not a problem of blurriness or squinting-- but pain
> and puffiness.

Molly,

People's experience varies, but unless the monitor is faulty it is
not the monitor!

My back ground is that of a professional pilot for 35 years, the last
12 years mostly in the middle of the night, and a Mac user since (Mac
512E) 1984. My eyes and how they work is very important to me <grin>
and my livelihood. I read little screens at more than arms length all
night, and then read my email, LOL.

Gritty eyes are sometimes caused by not blinking, therefore dry eyes.
When you change the focal distance of the presentation you are
reading it takes a little more concentration for you to read, when we
do this we reduce the blinking action. Add tiredness extra work etc
and you get this problem. Forty is the right age to exacerbate this
problem, and I have also experienced this when changing aircraft to
one where the instruments were further away.

A change from a Powerbook to a monitor is just at that critical focal
difference. Once you damage the surface to this extent, just using
eye lubricant is sometimes not enough, and so you need a non-
prescription eye lotion for minor infections from the chemist to fix
it. As always, if it does not improve after a couple of days, go to
your doctor.

Regards
Neil

On 20 Aug, 2006, at 01:53 pm, molly haselhorst wrote:

> Any ideas, suggestions?

How long has it been since you got your eyes checked by an
optometrist? If its been more then a couple of years its time to
have it done again, a slight prescription can reduce a lot of
eyestrain. Also make yourself look away from the screen every 15
minutes or so, your eyes do not like focusing at one distance for
extended periods of time. Finally, when you are looking at the
screen your eyes dont blink and so dry out, try some artificial tears
to reduce the redness and puffy feeling.
============================================
James (jamesemamac.com)
Vancouver BC Canada
http://homepage.mac.com/jamesema

On Aug 20, 2006, at 10:53 PM, molly haselhorst wrote:

> I've been working long hours on the monitor (though not more than a
> typical day on the laptop) and my eyeballs are red and swollen.
> They feel rough and gritty. This is a new experience for me and I'm
> concerned. It's not a problem of blurriness or squinting-- but pain
> and puffiness.

It sounds like you're not blinking enough. Go to a drugstore and get
some eyedrops for that. (I don't know exactly what they are called,
but there are special drops for people who work on computer screens
and don't blink enough. Your condition is common.)


Kirk

              Read my blog: Kirkville -- http://www.mcelhearn.com
           Musings, Opinion and Miscellanea, on Macs, iPods and more

I'd suggest a visit to an opthalmologist.

That would be a medical doctor who can dilate your eyes, examine them
in detail, prescribe medical treatment, and is in general much better
prepared to actually deal with "things that can go wrong" with your
eyes.

Meaning no disrespect to their profession, optometrists can _measure_
your eyes, fit glasses to them, but not _treat_ them if they are
diseased. Many optometrists are quite good at recognizing symptoms
and referring you on, BUT, that said, you only get TWO eyes, so why
mess about? You're having some painful symptoms, you are of a certain
age, as am I, and (did I mention?) you only get TWO...

You may never have been to an opthalmologist before, and (although
there's been some good suggestions on the list) why muck about with
your _only_ two eyes?

  --L

I'll second what others have said about getting a professional
examination. I was getting ready to enter grad school (being only a
little older than you) and thought I was noticing some small amount
of discomfort. I knew I'd be using my computer heavily along with
much more reading. Sure enough - I had a enough of a change that not
only did I need a minor change in one contact lens but actually
needed one for the other eye and reading glasses as well. Don't
bother with the drops unless the doctor tells you to use them. As
someone else has already said you only get two eyes - take care of them.
Best wishes
Jean

Re: Viewsonic, my neighbor detected a steady fluctuation in the illumination level; that's what convinced me to send it back. I got an Apple Cinema Display on eBay and that didn't work so well for me either. It looked fine to my neighbor, but still caused me eyestrain. On bright, sunny days I almost didn't notice it (with the brightness turned way down).

After reviewing the comments on this message board, I decided that it would probably be OK if I 1) lit up my workspace a lot more, and 2) probably got new glasses. Instead I've sold the monitor and gone back to my old Acer 15 inch lcd, which is not super crisp, but never hurts to use.

If I have some cash to spare this fall, I may try a 19", as those are at the lower end of their resolution (same # of pixils as a 17"), whereas the 20" monitors are at the high end and are probably just too bright and sharp for my aging eyes!

Re: Viewsonic, my neighbor detected a steady fluctuation in the
illumination level; that's what convinced me to send it back. I got
an Apple Cinema Display on eBay and that didn't work so well for me
either. It looked fine to my neighbor, but still caused me eyestrain.
On bright, sunny days I almost didn't notice it (with the brightness
turned way down).

After reviewing the comments on this message board, I decided that it
would probably be OK if I 1) lit up my workspace a lot more, and 2)
probably got new glasses. Instead I've sold the monitor and gone back
to my old Acer 15 inch lcd, which is not super crisp, but never hurts
to use.

If I have some cash to spare this fall, I may try a 19", as those are
at the lower end of their resolution (same # of pixils as a 17"),
whereas the 20" monitors are at the high end and are probably just
too bright and sharp for my aging eyes! -- If you want to unsubscribe
or change your address, use this link:
http://emperor.tidbits.com/webx?unsub.3c3f6899!u=30544643

Don't worry too much about LCD DPI being too small. The size of
almost everything can be increased as needed. [I am 61 and do not
have very good vision]. I have a Dell 20" (1200x1600, ~$450) and a
24" (1200x1920, ~$750). You can turn down the brightness, either
using the monitor's own controls, or Mac OS X monitor calibration.
--
Alan Charlesworth 503-231-7756

At 12:12 PM -0700 8/31/06, Alan Charlesworth wrote:
>Don't worry too much about LCD DPI being too small. The size of
>almost everything can be increased as needed. [I am 61 and do not
>have very good vision]. I have a Dell 20" (1200x1600, ~$450) and a
>24" (1200x1920, ~$750). You can turn down the brightness, either
>using the monitor's own controls, or Mac OS X monitor calibration.

LCDs emit a much brighter image than CRTs. I notice if I stare at my
LCD in the dark or in a dark room or with some other bright light
source next to it, I get headaches after 8-10 hours.

I think the key is to keep the room light, outside light, and LCD
brightness all in the same balance to prevent eye strain. The human
eye has trouble adapting to a single bright light source. It's kind
of like trying to stare at the sun all day which would no doubt also
cause eyestrain.

Mike

Thank you everyone for the great advice. Sorry for taking so long to get back to let you know "what worked."

I changed three things at once, so not sure which was the most important, but my eyes no longer are bothering me.

1. I got a different ViewSonic monitor (I now have a VX2025wm and I love it.) 2. I have a natural spectrum flourescent light that I point toward the wall behind the screen, which evens out the lighting. 3. I did the eyedrops for a couple of days, which really calmed the severe symptoms.

Thanks everyone for your fabulous advice. You really helped me a lot.

-molly (Who is still planning to get her eyes checked, so thanks for that, too.)

If brightness is an issue, there is some software out there that temporarily dims the screen. e.g. Shades http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/23370

There are alternative software out there too.

I use it on my 24" Dell sometimes, e.g. early in the morning when I don't switch on all the lights yet.

On 12-Mar-2007, at 13:20, fcchuan wrote:
> If brightness is an issue, there is some software out there that
> temporarily dims the screen. e.g. Shades <http://www.macupdate.com/
> info.php/id/23370>
>
> There are alternative software out there too.
>
> I use it on my 24" Dell sometimes, e.g. early in the morning when I
> don't switch on all the lights yet.

I set my Dell;'s brightness at 10 and put it in MAC [sic] mode and
never looked back. The screen is very crisp and clean looking, so
having it not so bright is not an issue with visibility. OTOH, my
'Pit of Despair" is in the basement and the windows are covered, so
the only light source is the LCD and the desklamp.

I turn up the brightness to about 30ish when I'm watching a full
screen video of more than a couple of minutes.

On 13/3/2007 12:09 PM, "Google Kreme" <gkremegmail.com> spake thus:

> I set my Dell;'s brightness at 10 and put it in MAC [sic] mode and
> never looked back.

Just goes to show how different people are --- on my Dell I found even
*that* was too bright and caused my eyes to feel strange after an hour or
so. I ended up beating it into submission with a custom ColorSync
calibration and put in a brighter overhead light. That seems to have worked,
but now it's too dark when I want to watch DVDs or play games :( I could
see Shades being really handy...

--
Nigel Stanger, Dunedin, NEW ZEALAND.
http://xri.net/=nigel.stanger

fcchuan <fcclistsgmail.com> wrote:

> If brightness is an issue, there is some software out there that
> temporarily dims the screen. e.g. Shades
<http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/23370>

Thank you, you saved my eyes :-)
I suspect that the excessive brightness of the iMac G5 screen causes me
headaches and/or tinnitus (as a result of the eye strain)
I was told that LCD screens were beter in this respect than cathodic
screen -- but when I (sometimes) go back to the trinitron-like screen
attached to my old PM 7600, what a relief ;-)

The iMac G5 (last gen.) brightness settings range from to "very bright"
to "exceedingly bright" ;-)

Don't know why Apple didn't give the ability to dim the screen... such
as for my old dual USB "iceBook", which can dim to black -- I know that
it is not needed for a desktop machine, though!
And the iceBook screen is unusable outside...

> I was told that LCD screens were beter in this respect than cathodic
> screen -- but when I (sometimes) go back to the trinitron-like screen
> attached to my old PM 7600, what a relief ;-)

LCDs are considered to reduce eyestrain more than CRTs because CRTs have a
refresh rate that can appear flickering to users and cause problems
(especially if the frequency is in sync with fluorescent light bulbs
flickering at 2 per second.) Of course most modern CRTs can handle
frequencies much higher than the old 60 Hz. I usually set CRTs at a minimum
of 70 Hz and a maximum of 100 Hz.

LCD brightness is mainly a function of the backlighting level. Backlights
are typically fluorescent tubes. Dimming fluorescents can be tricky. For
desktops I typically use the on-screen menu in the monitor itself to
control brightness. Even then it can be a bit flaky, especially in older
bulbs (and a brand new bulb may be very, very bright.) Not sure iMacs have
that option though.

<http://www.lcdpart.com/doc/ccflmeasure.html>

Viewsonic says LCDs have a brightness of 250 to 300 nits while CRTs are 100
nits. I have no idea what those units mean or if they are linearly
comparable (i.e. 200 nits is twice is bright as 100 nits), but it would
indicate to me that LCDs usually are much brighter.

<http://www.viewsonic.com/monitoruniversity/lcd.htm>

> Don't know why Apple didn't give the ability to dim the screen... such
> as for my old dual USB "iceBook", which can dim to black -- I know that
> it is not needed for a desktop machine, though!
> And the iceBook screen is unusable outside...

According to docs at Apple's site, F14 and F15 should dim/bright the screen

<http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=304665>

I would also try rerunning (or running for the first time) the Color Sync
calibration, I've found that to make monitors much easier to use.

At 8:28 AM -0700 3/18/07, Kevin van Haaren wrote:
>>Don't know why Apple didn't give the ability to dim the screen... such
>>as for my old dual USB "iceBook", which can dim to black -- I know that
>>it is not needed for a desktop machine, though!
>>And the iceBook screen is unusable outside...
>
>According to docs at Apple's site, F14 and F15 should dim/bright the screen

In my set up momentarily touching F12 dims (or returns to bright) the
CRT screen. Holding F12 longer operates the SuperDrive.

Another issue concerning display brightness is ambient light. I find
my eyes start to water if the display is significantly brighter than
the surrounding light -- the light I see behind and around the
display I'm looking at. I find it quite comfortable to stare at a
bright display all day as long as the room isn't dark.

I haven't looked into it, but I would guess that brighter light
throughout your field of view causes your irises to close some, but
staring at a focused light in a dark room leaves them open, letting
more of the display light in.

Also, I didn't see anyone mention display sharpness. Once I switched
to LCDs I could never go back to CRTs, because the analog pixels are
too fuzzy for me. Even the sharpest CRTs now give me a sensation of
not quite being able to completely focus my eyes on text and small
details.

--
Chris Page - Text Editor

An ASCII character walks into a bar. Bartender asks, “What’ll you
have?” ASCII character says, “Give me a double.” Bartender asks,
“Having a bad day?” ASCII character says, “Yeah, I have a parity
error.” Bartender says, “Hmmm. I thought you looked a bit off.”

Robert A. (Bob) Hall wrote:
> At 8:28 AM -0700 3/18/07, Kevin van Haaren wrote:
>>> Don't know why Apple didn't give the ability to dim the screen... such
>>> as for my old dual USB "iceBook", which can dim to black -- I know that
>>> it is not needed for a desktop machine, though!
>>> And the iceBook screen is unusable outside...
>>
>> According to docs at Apple's site, F14 and F15 should dim/bright the
>> screen
>
> In my set up momentarily touching F12 dims (or returns to bright) the
> CRT screen. Holding F12 longer operates the SuperDrive.
>
>
Are you sure you're not bringing up Widgets but have none to bring up?


[Yeah, sounds like an Expose type effect... -Adam]