Garmin StreetPilot 2720

On May 18, 2006, at 10:18 AM, Shawn King wrote:

> The only other major issue we experienced was the GPS "tried to
> kill us" a
> couple of times. In the dark of the Cherohala Skyway (not a road
> you want to
> be on when you are exhausted from a 7 hour motorcycle trip *and*
> it's dark),
> it told us to turn left down a particular road that we didn't find
> out was *gravel*
> (gravel is quicksand to motorcycles) until it was too late.

I remember years ago now whilst waiting in the Kingston (WA) ferry
terminal on my way to a Saturday morning dBUG gathering in Seattle
hearing an NPR report of a pair of tourists in Germany who drove off
a ferry loading ramp at a time the ferry was not present. The story
claimed that they claimed they were following the GPS device in their
rented car, and the map had a nice line after the left turn they
made. And they didn't notice the small break in the physical road.
The story claimed that the local police chief said something about
"excessive dependence on technology." I *hope* the story was true.

Question for those who know: Do such devices know about the evil
left-lane exits from freeways? Would one tell me that I'm going to
leave northbound I5 in Seattle for Mercer Street from the left lane?

   --John

On Thursday, May 18, 2006 at 11:58 AM, johnbaxterlistsmac.com wrote:

> Question for those who know: Do such devices know about the evil
> left-lane exits from freeways? Would one tell me that I'm going to
> leave northbound I5 in Seattle for Mercer Street from the left lane?

Yes. I have a 2720 as well, and it handles the left exits and other
oddities I've come across quite well.

- Todd

On 5/18/06 12:07 PM, "bperrey" <bperreysbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Garmin to support Mac OS X...
>
> http://www.garmin.com/pressroom/corporate/011006.html

Unfortunately, they don't say *when*.
--
Shawn King
Host/Executive Producer
Your Mac Life
http://www.yourmaclife.com

On 5/18/06 1:58 PM, "Adam C. Engst" <acetidbits.com> wrote:

>> Does Boot Camp (with MS Windows installed) support
>> Garmin's USB Interface?
>
> You don't have to load maps on any of the devices I've reviewed -
> they all come pre-loaded.

I haven't needed any other maps in my travels in the South and as far East
as DC. I'll be taking my 2720 to Dallas next weekend and undoubtedly, won't
need additional maps or info there.

--
Shawn King
Host/Executive Producer
Your Mac Life
http://www.yourmaclife.com

Just a couple of very personal observations...

At 10:18 AM -0700 5/18/06, Shawn King wrote:
>Those of us who
>get lost in our own homes marvel at the directional skills of those of you
>who don't *need* GPS. :)

Shawn isn't joking. I've never met anyone with less sense of
direction than him. He picked me up at an airport once, and we spent
almost an hour finding his OWN CAR. It would not surprise me at all
to hear that he dies one day after losing his way from the bathroom
to the kitchen and starves to death.

=\




At 11:58 AM -0700 5/18/06, johnbaxterlistsmac.com wrote:
>Question for those who know: Do such devices know about the evil
>left-lane exits from freeways? Would one tell me that I'm going to
>leave northbound I5 in Seattle for Mercer Street from the left lane?

Some do, some don't. GPS Navigation systems are comprised of TWO
parts, the GPS part which provides the "you are here" (and you are
facing X direction going X speed) part(s), and the map data. The
answer to your question John, is that it depends on the quality of
the map data.

If the map data is good, the directions will be good. Garbage in, garbage out.



Regarding the "excessive dependence on technology" (I'll refrain from
making Darwin jokes) issues, which John cites the people in Germany
driving off a ferry ramp, and Shawn cites a turn down a gravel road
on a bike... This is where these gadgets reveal themselves as just
another tool. The risk in using them to the point of becoming a
crutch is tempting due to the "you are here" interactivity of GPS. I
realize the "directionally challenged" feel they NEED to be reassured
every step of the way, but your PRIMARY duty while operating a motor
vehicle is to safety of yourself and those around you. Your attention
should be on your environment OUTSIDE the perimeter of your vehicle,
not inside. Objects that distract you otherwise (including cell
phones as much, if not more than navigation systems!) increase your
risk of accident, dismemberment, mutilation, spindling, death, etc.


Having been a passenger in the RAAGU
(Redundant-Array-of-Annoying-GPS-Unit) equipped rental car that the
Engst's brought digital.forest recently; during the quick trip to the
local Red Robin for lunch... I was ready to yank them both off the
dash and (pardon the pun) chuck them out the window! =)

Sorry Adam.


I consider myself a complete geek, fully equipped with laptop, Treo,
iPod, and 1.25MW Diesel backup power enerator... but I think I'll
stick to my analog, portable navigation system: A Road Atlas, and my
own sense of direction, thank you.

--chuck




--

___________________________________________________________________
Well-weathered leather, Hot metal and oil, The scented country air.
Sunlight on chrome, The blur of the landscape, Every nerve aware.

-- 'Red Barchetta' - Rush from 'Moving Pictures' 1981

I think any software/map updates require Windows. Would this work
using VirtualPC on non-Intel Macs?

On 18-May-06, at 12:58, johnbaxterlistsmac.com wrote:

> Question for those who know: Do such devices know about the evil
> left-lane exits from freeways? Would one tell me that I'm going to
> leave northbound I5 in Seattle for Mercer Street from the left lane?

Yes, they do. they don't warn you that you are in a multi person in
the car lane tho. I decided that if the police stopped me, my out of
state licence and the gps instructions might save me a ticket. I got
in the left lane when it told me to and then saw the sign. Later, I
map quested and it did the same thing.

>Having been a passenger in the RAAGU
>(Redundant-Array-of-Annoying-GPS-Unit) equipped rental car that the
>Engst's brought digital.forest recently; during the quick trip to the
>local Red Robin for lunch... I was ready to yank them both off the

What Chuck's referring to is that our rental car actually came with
the Hertz NeverLost GPS (which is based on the Magellan technology,
but is a bit older than the RoadMate 760 I reviewed before), so we
had dueling GPSes at times. The Garmin unit was better in basically
every way, so we ignored the NeverLost.

The trip with Chuck actually verified something I've noticed a few
times but haven't gotten to mentioning in the articles... that it's
REALLY hard to drive in a new area following the GPS directions and
have a conversation with someone with whom you don't normally drive,
particularly when part of the conversation involves showing off the
GPS. When it's just Tonya and/or Tristan in the car, or just me
alone, I have no problem paying attention to the GPS. But when a
friend is the car, I find myself paying enough more attention to them
(and being worried about whether the GPS will embarrass me) that I'm
more likely to miss a turn.

cheers... -Adam

--
New Take Control ebooks! ........... http://www.takecontrolbooks.com/
_____________________________________________________________________
Adam C. Engst: I publish TidBITS, write books, and make sure the
acetidbits.com right people know each other in the Mac industry.
Me: http://www.tidbits.com/adam/ TidBITS: http://www.tidbits.com/

>Question for those who know: Do such devices know about the evil
>left-lane exits from freeways? Would one tell me that I'm going to
>leave northbound I5 in Seattle for Mercer Street from the left lane?

This is another interesting little detail I kept out of the article
for space reasons. Yes, the Garmin 2720 and other units handle
left-lane exits just fine.

But, for those who know Seattle, the Mercer exit leaving northbound
I-5 comes just after you go under the Convention Center, and is, I
think, where the I-5 express lanes separate off (I think they go
underground; I've never had occasion to take them).

The two times we needed to take the Mercer exit going north on I-5,
the Garmin 2720 had the directions right until we went under the
Convention Center. As we came out, it got confused and recalculated,
thinking we were on the express lanes and couldn't exit for 2 miles.
Of course, as soon as we took the Mercer exit, it figured out where
we were and recalculated properly again.

I think the mistake was due in part to loss of signal under the
Convention Center, and to the fact that the I-5 express lanes are
underneath the regular lanes, making it difficult to know which the
car is on from the GPS perspective.

Honestly, Seattle is an grey area for us with regard to the GPS
because we know the basics well enough from 10 years of living there
that it's just annoying to be told how to make the basic directions.
But at the same time, we never quite figured out where all the
freeway entrances were in downtown Seattle, and being able to follow
the GPS directions to the closest one was easier than our usual
technique of wandering around until we ran across an entrance.

cheers... -Adam


--
New Take Control ebooks! ........... http://www.takecontrolbooks.com/
_____________________________________________________________________
Adam C. Engst: I publish TidBITS, write books, and make sure the
acetidbits.com right people know each other in the Mac industry.
Me: http://www.tidbits.com/adam/ TidBITS: http://www.tidbits.com/

> You don't have to load maps on any of the devices I've reviewed -
> they all come pre-loaded. Garmin claims to be adding Mac
> compatibility for updating the maps and firmware by the end of the
> year, but no news on that yet.
>
> I don't have an Intel-based Mac yet, so I can't comment on the
> Windows solutions.
>
> cheers... -Adam

Adam, but things -- including roads -- CHANGE. In San Francisco, the
roads around the Bay Bridge keep changing. In Oakland, a big bond
measure will soon be reconfiguring roads near where I live. It does
seem important that you can upload updates.

Jim

On 5/23/06 15:19, "Adam C. Engst" <acetidbits.com> wrote:

> The trip with Chuck actually verified something I've noticed a few
> times but haven't gotten to mentioning in the articles... that it's
> REALLY hard to drive in a new area following the GPS directions and
> have a conversation with someone with whom you don't normally drive,
> particularly when part of the conversation involves showing off the
> GPS. When it's just Tonya and/or Tristan in the car, or just me
> alone, I have no problem paying attention to the GPS. But when a
> friend is the car, I find myself paying enough more attention to them
> (and being worried about whether the GPS will embarrass me) that I'm
> more likely to miss a turn.

The aircraft industry has had this problem solved for over thirty years:

Heads Up Displays.


[It's not the display that's the problem - it's my attention. Clearly I would be a bad tourist pilot, trying to describe the scenery while flying. :-) -Adam]


--
John C. Welch Writer/Analyst
Bynkii.com Mac and other opinions
jwelchbynkii.com

On May 23, 2006, at 1:19 PM, Adam C. Engst wrote:

> Honestly, Seattle is an grey area for us with regard to the GPS
> because we know the basics well enough from 10 years of living there
> that it's just annoying to be told how to make the basic directions.
> But at the same time, we never quite figured out where all the
> freeway entrances were in downtown Seattle, and being able to follow
> the GPS directions to the closest one was easier than our usual
> technique of wandering around until we ran across an entrance.

Which I guess leads to my next question.

Some of the downtown entrances go directly to the express lanes and
are carpool only and only open some of the time. I see two "right"
ways to handle that in the GPS units:
    1. Ignore those entrances
    2. Offer them if the user acknowledges that the vehicle
qualifies and the express lanes are open in the right direction.

The wrong way would be to offer them unconditionally.


[I don't remember having any trouble with it telling us to do stupid things, but then again, we weren't on the freeways we knew all that much. -Adam]


And then there is the I-90 reversible express lane, which *can* be
used by a single-occupancy vehicle which is bound for Mercer Island
(which the GPS knows) but not those which are headed farther; both
only when the lanes are open eastbound.

At least they don't drive the car for you (yet). I would think that
the few remaining Seattle streets with back-in angled parking (the
ones I know about are in the Denny Regrade) would likely cause
problems. ;-)

   --John (but Officer, the machine told me to do it!)

On May 23, 2006, at 1:19 PM, Jim Ratliff wrote:

>> You don't have to load maps on any of the devices I've reviewed -
>> they all come pre-loaded. Garmin claims to be adding Mac
>> compatibility for updating the maps and firmware by the end of the
>> year, but no news on that yet.
>>
>> I don't have an Intel-based Mac yet, so I can't comment on the
>> Windows solutions.
>
> Adam, but things -- including roads -- CHANGE. In San Francisco, the
> roads around the Bay Bridge keep changing. In Oakland, a big bond
> measure will soon be reconfiguring roads near where I live. It does
> seem important that you can upload updates.

And the Garmin is likely still telling people to turn right at the
Fremont end of the Fremont Ave bridge--that turn will be illegal for
several months while the bridge is reduced to two lanes for
reconstruction--the change was this morning, so there likely isn't an
upgraded map covering it yet.

There was a rather interesting TV show on (*unknown*) a few months
ago about the people who drive around in automated vans producing
this sort of update for one of the mapping companies.

   --John

Actually the express lanes are a left-lane exit just before coming to te convention center inb Seattle. And, if you do happen to make the exit to Mercer in seattle, wait until you get into the mess at the bottom, something they have been trying to straighten out for 3 decades, and probably will never get fixed due to gridlock in the government. Read that as nobody in the city council or the state legislature being willing to make a decision.

Denis Robinson, (federal way wa.)

Has anyone tried the Garmin computers for bicycles:

http://www.ctcshop.com/find.jsp?searchFor=Garmin&searchWhat=3&minPrice=100&sortDirection=2

Sorry, don't have a US website for them. I don't have a car anymore
so won't need the streetpilot 2720, but one of those cycling Garmins
are very tempting once I can afford to buy one.

On the subject of directional computers, I once took a black cab from
London Bridge station to a street near Moorgate station and the cab
driver had just got one of these computers (don't know if it was a
Garmin or not). He was quite excited about this new technology so he
followed its directions exactly. Instead of taking me straight up
King William Street and Prince Street, he turned right at Bank and
went via a street near Liverpool Street station instead, ie he
meandered around quite a bit! I had taken the cab because I was in a
rush to get to an appointment and the meandering had made me late.
The cab driver knew that the computer instructions had been up the
creek, so I ended up not paying for the trip at all. The driver
should have relied upon his "Knowledge" instead.

Since I have started bicycling again over a year ago I don't think I
have taken a black cab and I don't know how many have installed
navigation aids. You probably do not know this but black cab drivers
in London train for several years in "The Knowledge" of London
streets, so much so that the navigational parts of their brains are
much bigger than most peoples, according to some medical research
done a few years ago. I hope that this Knowledge isn't replaced by
computerised info which will be unlikely to include all those odd
little shortcuts that black cab drivers (and cyclists) get to know.

Slightly off-topic, but probably interesting.

A clarification: the cabs are black (though some have ads on them
now) and are specially-made cars, the drivers are not necessarily
black!

On 5/22/06 at 8:52 AM, jimvirtualperfection.com (Jim Ratliff) wrote:

I think any software/map updates require Windows. Would this work using VirtualPC on non-Intel Macs?

I think the answer is: It depends.

There are two parts to the equation: Getting/generating the maps/updates, and synching them to the GPS unit.

From what I've been able to tell, none of the USB-based GPS systems will sync directly under VirtualPC, because VirtualPC's handling of the USB ports isn't good enough for the GPS synching software to make the connection.

However, I found that the Garmin Palm-based iQue 3600 would work with a Mac version of Palm Desktop; Garmin provided one for download through their website, and there's a third-party patching program available for people who have a later version of Palm Desktop installed from a newer Palm handheld. And the Garmin mapping software for the iQue did run on VirtualPC, if slowly. So I was able to generate maps using VirtualPC, then use the Mac Palm Desktop to sync them to the iQue. In addition, the iQue could use maps stored on standard PC-formatted SD cards; therefore, I could generate the maps using VirtualPC and then copy them to the SD card with a standard USB card reader on the Mac side.

So, to sum up: If the GPS unit requires a direct USB connection, it won't work under VirtualPC. However, if you can find a Mac program to handle synching to the GPS unit, or the GPS unit can read maps directly off of a PC-formatted SD card and you can mimic the appropriate directory structure on the Mac, then you can probably get it to work with VirtualPC on a Mac.

Travis Butler tbutlermac.com

...Cats are the proof of a higher purpose to the universe.

At 1:44 PM -0700 5/24/06, MList wrote:
>Has anyone tried the Garmin computers for bicycles:
>
>http://www.ctcshop.com/find.jsp?searchFor=Garmin&searchWhat=3&minPrice=100&sortDirection=2
>


I have an Edge 305 and it's great at what it was designed to for: as
a training aide. It can measure cadence, heart rate, speed,
distance, altitude, etc.. However, you can't upload maps or easily
use it for navigation.

In fact, I got mine at a discount from someone who purchased it as a
navigation aide and then found out it couldn't do that.

My only complaint about the device is that the battery charge only
lasts about 4-5 hours--not long enough for an all-day epic ride.


Best,

Ken Prager

Well, Adam, you've given me much food for thought. I've been following your reviews since the Magellan 700 and almost purchased the 800 last week when Amazon had it for $600 with a $100 rebate. Then I read the details a little closer and noticed the 800 did not have the SayWhere® software you thought was so useful on the 760 (and I have no need for an mp3 player and picture carrier; I have enough things that do that already). So now you've brought up the Garmin 2720 which definitely seems like a worthy device. So now I'm down to choosing between a Magellan 760 for $630 (with a $50 Amazon rebate) or a Garmin 2720 for $730. Anyone care to comment on the relevant merits between the two?

On 26 May 2006, at 11:22 , dwjohnson wrote:
> So now I'm down to choosing between a Magellan 760 for $630 (with a
> $50 Amazon rebate) or a Garmin 2720 for $730. Anyone care to
> comment on the relevant merits between the two?

Gamin is promising OS X software for generating update maps and
uploading to the device. That would probably be enough for me.

--
Today the road all runners come/Shoulder high we bring you home.
And set you at your threshold down/Townsman of a stiller town.

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