Sony to do for books what iTunes did for music?

On 2/16/06 at 8:08 AM, gkremegmail.com (Google Kreme) wrote:

> On 14 Feb 2006, at 16:13 , nicholas.dennys wrote:
> > At least, I hope I'm right, or my shop will soon be closing!
>
> I suggest you reread your post and substitute "album" for "book".

That's exactly what I was thinking. I remember the occasional protest
from fans of album art when the CD came out, lamenting the loss of
iconic LP covers like Sgt. Pepper's, and I agree - just compare the
glorious slipcover of the Fresh Aire VI LP release to the comparatively
pedestrian artwork on the CD booklet. However, the really great covers
were always rare, and they didn't stop the CD from destroying the LP
market. Apple's adding album art back into iTMS songs suggests that
there's still some interest, but as a display mechanism iTunes and the
iPod are pretty pathetic.

All this said, I do share an attachment to 'the book' as a physical
object. I love collecting SF editions from the 50's and 60's, and even
the 70's; there's something about the cover art, the whole package, that
speaks to me in a way that today's editions just can't. But I have to
wonder how much of that's nostalgia; there are very few books on the
shelves now that I care for in the same way, and a lot more that I think
are just plain ugly. Maybe I'm just getting old. :)

Posters have also made good points about how printed books don't depend
on extra technology. Music has always required equipment to listen to,
whether it's the instruments in a live performance, Edison's
hand-cranked wax cylinder players, or an iPod - paper books just need
light. Using my Palm as an e-reader does impose a certain amount of
overhead.

But in the end, I find myself turning to my Palm more than my paper
library these days. The advantages I mentioned previously - the size and
weight, the fact that carrying them on the Palm means I'll always have
them with me (even in situations where I couldn't or wouldn't carry a PB
or especially an HC), the extra convenience in reading (does anyone
*else* have problems these days with trying to keep a PB open enough to
read without cracking or even breaking the spine, especially the
bricks?) - just make the whole thing more enjoyable overall.


Travis Butler
tbutlermac.com

...Cats are the proof of a higher purpose to the universe.

On Feb 16, 2006, at 10:24 PM, cheshirenekomac.com wrote:

> I've been reading the posts in this thread with particular interest,
> and it is clear that books are objects endowed with symbolic and
> personal meaning that goes significantly beyond its utility as a
> means of storing and conveying information. As a book lover, I whole
> heartedly agree with many of the sentiments expressed here. At the
> same time, I wonder if we aren't just in love with the idea of books,
> or the idea of books as they might be, rather than the reality of
> most books we purchase, read and accumulate.


Friends:

        First, thanks to tomaharu for insightful and sensitive reflection of
complex situations concerning that longtime lifline for most of us
addicted to the word-occupations, at any level.
        Then let me agree with nearly all of his well-stated points, and add a
(very !) few of mine own, from some sixty working years with words in
every format for every purpose from teaching to techologies, and with
hard lessons at every step and stage.

        One lesson learned early-on was that books in traditional formats are
treasures to be savored and not only tasted but fully-consumed, which
for me has always meant marking for meaning and emphasis --and mine own
added-notes-- on nearly every page.
        This has proven invaluable as a learning resource for me for so long
it is even working habit for news-clips, nagazine pages, even any
advertising verbiage kept-and-marked for what can be squeezed out and
reworked; and it also makes remarkable (in memory) that particular
content, via reshaping what might be there and dependent only upon the
actual impact-of-words otherwise.

        That, too, then makes of each such added-value book (or page or clip)
a somewhat-personalized and thus still more re-markable/in memory
medium, thus that much more valuable in resort via return, and often
worked more rapidly and extensively simply because so marked-and-noted.

        Thus my own somewhat-reduced working library is still hefty and heavy
and numerous enough for more rapid return than it might ever have been
otherwise -- albeit surely reducing the market value of all bound
copies ! -- a small price to pay for all those individual values (mine
own !) surely also left on the pages, and sometimes worth even more
than the content-sought, when return becomes needed for current
purposes.

        SO thank you for this thread...even though I surveil (quietly, most of
the time) this channel simply to help me to understand the constant
suppressed mutters and growls emanating constantly from within mine own
Emac -- you will understand the possessive here as partially imposed,
of course !!

yrfriendhank
Learning Media Associates

        Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything."
                ---Wyatt Earp

On Feb 16, 2006, at 8:08 AM, danhardt wrote:

> Nicholas Dennys's description of the value of books is beautifully
> and thoughtfully done. As valuable as the Take Control books are, no
> ebook could ever accomplish all the things Nicholas discusses. Case
> closed. Thank you, Nicholas.
>
> [Well, to be fair, the Take Control ebooks are far more similar to
> today's technical paperbacks, which don't really accomplish what
> Nicholas talks about either. Every year at the local book sale in
> Ithaca (one of the largest in the U.S. with over 250,000 books sold
> in 15 days), the computer book section is always still full at the
> end. Who needs or wants a book about FoxBase Pro today? I have to
> resist the urge to rescue older editions of my books that show up
> every year even still. -Adam]

Adam,
You need to rescue the older editions of your books---they're our
children! And that's what garages are for.


[Don't worry, I have at least one copy, and usually more, of each edition. :-) -Adam]]


I hope I was clear that I love your Take Control ebooks. They have
saved my hide several times, and I will keep buying them. But
there's something magical about holding a sturdy binding filled with
pages of knowledge. It's a feeling the Internet can't provide.


[Believe me, I understand! There's nothing like writing your first book and getting the first copy of it. -Adam]


Dan Hardt

On 2/17/06 12:40, "Travis Butler" <tbutlerbirch.net> wrote:

> But in the end, I find myself turning to my Palm more than my paper
> library these days. The advantages I mentioned previously - the size and
> weight, the fact that carrying them on the Palm means I'll always have
> them with me (even in situations where I couldn't or wouldn't carry a PB
> or especially an HC), the extra convenience in reading (does anyone
> *else* have problems these days with trying to keep a PB open enough to
> read without cracking or even breaking the spine, especially the
> bricks?) - just make the whole thing more enjoyable overall.

Books don't require power either.

--
John C. Welch Writer/Analyst
Bynkii.com Mac and other opinions
jwelchbynkii.com

> [Well, to be fair, the Take Control ebooks are far more similar to
> today's technical paperbacks, which don't really accomplish what Nicholas
> talks about either. Every year at the local book sale in Ithaca (one of
> the largest in the U.S. with over 250,000 books sold in 15 days), the
> computer book section is always still full at the end. Who needs or wants
> a book about FoxBase Pro today? I have to resist the urge to rescue older
> editions of my books that show up every year even still. -Adam]

I use O'Reilly's Safari for technical books, especially books I'm using
while upgrading my MCSE certification. Basically I'm renting the books.
Typically I like having reference books on hand, but I've found books used
to study for the MCSE to be particularly worthless once you've passed the
test. I'll be grateful not to have 20 lbs of never referenced again
reference books lying around.

The only downside is you have to keep a book for at least 30 days before
you can remove it from your bookshelf. This means I can't throw a book on
there real quick to look for a problem, then drop it off my bookshelf.

<http://safari.oreilly.com/>

Kevin

On 17/02/2006, at 7:24 PM, cheshirenekomac.com wrote:

> For the most part, most paperback books aren't particularly well put
> together, often printed on poor quality paper, with cramped fonts
> choices and less than aesthetic layout and design, with a cheap glue-
> binding. Hardly the kind of tactile and visual experience to be
> coveted, nor durable enough to survive more than few reads. Hard
> cover books are often better to be sure, but even here the economics
> of publishing are fairly apparent.
>
> There is nothing like a well thought out, well desgned, well put
> together book. But we encounter them less frequently.

Along with the demise of paper reference books (which really does
seem inevitable, and not overly regrettable, other than the
anthropological implications for future historians), I wonder whether
ebooks will help improve the average quality of paper books, by
weeding out the chaff.

Books that aren't successful, books by new authors, and books
intended for a short life, could all start out as ebooks. If they
turn out to be a success, and deserving of a paper version, then that
could later be arranged. As print-on-demand improves, it shouldn't
be overly difficult to even make this a per-customer decision.

While I certainly can't ever see myself replacing my paper library
with an electronic one (even though I have with music and can see
myself doing with video and nonfiction), I could see ebooks replacing
library usage, where I'd 'borrow' (or rent, or whatever) an
electronic copy of a book on a much-higher-quality reader than
currently exists, and if I liked it, push a button to have a paper
copy delivered to me (for a fee, of course). Anything I didn't like
would just be 'returned'.

(This is similar to something that still doesn't satisfactorily
exist, and may now never do, with music, where if I hear a song I
like, I want to push a (single) button on my iPod (or whatever) and
have it figure out the song, buy it, and put it in my music library).

> IMHO, the demise of the physical book seems inevitable. I am by no
> means happy with this development, and am concerned about its
> cultural implications.

I'd be willing to agree that paper books will become less common, but
I think there will always be a collector's market, which is likely to
always increase in size (i.e. new books will become collector's items).

=Tony.Meyer

On 11/02/2006, at 11:27 AM, Marilyn Matty wrote:

> On Feb 10, 2006, at 10:19 AM, Nigel Stanger wrote:
>
>> On 10/2/2006 4:19 AM, "Marilyn Matty" <mmattynyc.rr.com> spake thus:
>>
>>> but how many people are likely to buy by the chapter
>>
>> Stephen King tried this (on paper!) with The Green Mile, does
>> anyone know how well it did using the by-chapter serial model?
>
> If I recall correctly, it did quite well. However, the draw was
> Stephen King, who promoted it relentlessly and tends to dominate the
> best seller lists, not the serial form of release.

Others have also done this sort of thing, including electronic only
versions:

Tad William's "Shadowmarch" <http://www.shadowmarch.com> was
originally a web-only chapter-by-chapter subscription series (it's
now regular books). Back when it was announced (2001?) I was
interested, but not enough to actually subscribe, and didn't keep up
with the news, so I'm not 100% about the details, but I believe it
was financial reasons that caused the change to traditional print.

Orson Scott Card <http://hatrack.com> has a quarterly electronic
magazine <http://www.intergalacticmedicineshow.com> that includes
original short stories and novel chapters. This only started last
year, so there's no indication yet (other than Card's own sources, of
course) of how successful it'll be.

Scott Sigler <http://scottsigler.net> released "Earthcore" (warning:
this is a violent novel not suitable for children or delicate people)
chapter-by-chapter (well, groups of chapters) in podiobook (podcast
audio book) format. It was free, so doesn't address the 'will people
pay for it' question, but it was successful enough that a print
version now exists, which is selling (I don't know how well). He's
doing another ("Ancestor"), so it must seem reasonably promising.

Podiobooks <http://podiobooks.com> have other books serialized in a
similar manner, both originally electronic and from-print. They're
donation-based rather than requiring a subscription, so it again
doesn't quite answer the question. (I happily pay a regular
donation, though, and wouldn't particularly care if it was required).

(I'm sure there are many that I'm not aware of, as well as ones that
don't come immediately to mind).

I think there's definitely hope for the serialized form of fiction
yet (perhaps particularly within certain genre). At the moment, it
seems that audio versions do better electronically, but as ebook
readers improve, that may change. As I expressed in a previous post
(assuming it passes the moderation hurdle) I feel this is a good way
to try books, before buying a paper copy (much as I listen to podsafe
music <http://music.podshow.com> and then purchase CDs ( no iTMS
here :( ) from those artists).

=Tony.Meyer

On Feb 18, 2006, at 7:35 AM, John C. Welch wrote:

> Books don't require power either.
>

Sometimes that's important. I was without power for 10 days after
Hurricane Wilma.

On Feb 18, 2006, at 4:35 AM, John C. Welch wrote:

> Books don't require power either.

A little light helps, however.

   --John (recently finished a 3 day power outage)

Tony Meyer on 2/18/06 wrote something to the effect of:

>> IMHO, the demise of the physical book seems inevitable. I am by no
>> means happy with this development, and am concerned about its
>> cultural implications.
>
>I'd be willing to agree that paper books will become less common, but
>I think there will always be a collector's market, which is likely to
>always increase in size (i.e. new books will become collector's items).

But what kinds of books are worth collecting, even today? That's a narrow subset of books actually
published each year; I would guess no more than a handful. The rest just end up as landfill, on
surplus tables for pennies on the dollar, or grow dusty on bookshelves. For those non-collectable
books, electronic versions might be much more efficient and practical. Any book that you read only
once, or use for reference, is a good candidate for an ebook.

I find the fuss and furor over ebooks and the potential loss of paper books to be premature and
pointless. I'm surprised no one has brought up audio-books -- which have been around for quite a
while now -- as a suitable comparison to ebooks. Both require technology (electricity, hardware
device) to read, have DRM issues, and a vastly different interface than traditional paper books. Yet
why aren't people decrying the advent of audio-books and proclaiming that people will just listen and
lose the ability to read?

The answer is that audio-books, like ebooks, are simply another form of book, not a replacement.
Neither poses a threat to the other. The content is what's important, not the medium.

As for archiving, with print-on-demand services growing (and capabilities and costs dropping), it'll
be simple in the future to do limited print runs of paper books for archivists, libraries, and
collectors. (For large libraries, books would be transmitted electronically and printed on-site to
save shipping costs.)

While I whole-heartedly agree that ebook technology has a *long* way to grow before it's truly useful
and ubiquitous (bathroom reading ability is essential), the benefits of digital are huge: store
entire libraries in the palm of your hand, easy updating of content (as the Take Control books
demonstrate), adjust the display format (font and size) as you see fit, actually _find_ the book you
are looking for instead of spending hours searching for a physical book you know's supposed to be on
your bookshelf, lower cost with more revenue going directly to author, better use of natural
resources, etc.

What I'd really like to see is ebooks being bundled _with_ paper books. Then you get the best of both
worlds. (I do this with the magazine I publish and readers love it as they have the paper copy to
take to the restroom and a digital copy for easy archiving and searching.) That would be the best way
to promote ebooks and get them into the hands of tons of people who would start using them and
eventually like them.

-- Marc

______________________________________________________________________
      Marc Zeedar * Publisher * REALbasic Developer Magazine
                    <http://www.rbdeveloper.com/>

On Feb 18, 2006, at 9:51 AM, johnbaxterlistsmac.com wrote:
> A little light helps, however.
>
> --John (recently finished a 3 day power outage)


John et al:

        What you say about light-required for paper-print/books is very
true...but then, too, there is that light which indubitiably doth
cometh right back from them, too.

yrfriendhank
Learning Media Associates

    "Those who corrupt the public mind are just as evil as those who
steal from the public purse."
                ...Adlai Stevenson - 1952

> [Believe me, I understand! There's nothing like writing your first
> book and getting the first copy of it. -Adam]


Adam,
You're absolutely right. I wrote a dissertation and have 3 copies on
my bookshelf. I will never cash the royalty check I received from
the sale of it to the 6 magnificent people who actually bought it.
Dan

[Tony Meyer]
>> I'd be willing to agree that paper books will become less common, but
>> I think there will always be a collector's market, which is likely to
>> always increase in size (i.e. new books will become collector's
>> items).

[Marc Zeedar]
> But what kinds of books are worth collecting, even today? That's a
> narrow subset of books actually
> published each year; I would guess no more than a handful.

Um, where do you get that idea? I collect at least 50 books a year;
if I had more money, it'd be more. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only
one...

> I'm surprised no one has brought up audio-books -- which have been
> around for quite a
> while now -- as a suitable comparison to ebooks.

I brought up audio books in my message...

> As for archiving, with print-on-demand services growing (and
> capabilities and costs dropping), it'll
> be simple in the future to do limited print runs of paper books for
> archivists, libraries, and
> collectors.

I more-or-less said this, too.

=Tony.Meyer

At 5:11 AM -0800 2/10/06, Jonathan Ploudre wrote:
>I like to read right before bedtime. But back in the day the palm
>'backlight' lit up the letters, not the screen. Nowadays I'm looking
>at a glaring white screen (even with the brightness turned all the
>way down. I can't help but wonder if that disturbs my sleep some. I
>know when my wife reads on her palm, I have to turn over because it's
>too bright.

        I think there is a way to reverse this, either with a software
addition or via some hidden preference setting.

        Here is a reference to it for the Palm V:

<http://www.pdastreet.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-6910.html>

"The procedure is: Go to memo section - start a new memo - in the graffiti
letter area - make a cursive L to start the shortcut - then tap (you'll get
the period) - then tap again - then make an 8 in the numerical graffiti
area. Your backlight should be reversed from what you had - if you don't
like it, start a new memo, do the same shortcut and you will go back to
what you previously had."



--
* Johann Beda - contact link: <http://public.xdi.org/=j-beda> *
* Johann's MostlyMac Computer Consulting - <http://mmcc.beda.ca/> *

At 4:35 AM -0800 2/18/06, Tony Meyer wrote:
>(I'm sure there are many that I'm not aware of, as well as ones that
>don't come immediately to mind).

        Lawrence Watt-Evans has done some subscription serialization stuff,
particularly with ongoing series that publishers have not maintained
interest in.
<http://www.watt-evans.com/>

        And I think that Baen has been mentioned before as providing some
older works of a variety of authors for free in their "Baen Free Library".
They have an extensive list of Science Fiction authors who have at least
one work posted, in a variety of formats. All without DRM.
<http://www.baen.com/library/>


--
* Johann Beda - contact link: <http://public.xdi.org/=j-beda> *
* Johann's MostlyMac Computer Consulting - <http://mmcc.beda.ca/> *

On Feb 20, 2006, at 11:21 AM, Johann Beda wrote:

> At 4:35 AM -0800 2/18/06, Tony Meyer wrote:
>> (I'm sure there are many that I'm not aware of, as well as ones that
>> don't come immediately to mind).
>
> Lawrence Watt-Evans has done some subscription serialization stuff,
> particularly with ongoing series that publishers have not maintained
> interest in.
> <http://www.watt-evans.com/>

I recall Mr Watt-Evans's experiment with _The Spriggan Mirror_ --
what he did, as I recall, was publish a PayPal address, and release
each chapter when he had accumulated some amount of money -- I think
$100 -- to pay for it, not faster than a week at a time. As I
recall, he had no trouble at all finding people to pay for his work.

I think it's a brilliant way of producing books that used to be on
the mid-list. It's not likely to make an author rich, but then,
neither is traditional publishing.

> And I think that Baen has been mentioned before as providing some
> older works of a variety of authors for free in their "Baen Free
> Library".
> They have an extensive list of Science Fiction authors who have at
> least
> one work posted, in a variety of formats. All without DRM.
> <http://www.baen.com/library/>

Baen's experiment demonstrated pretty clearly that (at least in his
market) providing free digital copies of books did not materially
affect the sales of traditionally printed books.

But what both of these have in common, I think, is that they're
working towards the least common denominator: plain text. Corporate
approaches require more control than that, which means that unencoded
plain text is not an option; and encoded text that can be simply
decoded or cut-and-paste out of whatever application is reading it is
not an option; and eventually you get to a proprietary platform and
reader gadget, which rather defeats the purpose of the ebook in the
first place. My Powerbook comes with me everywhere, and when I
carried a PDA, that did too; if I need to carry a digital book in
addition to both of those, it had better offer significant advantages
over carrying a paper book.

--
Charlton Wilbur
cwilburchromatico.net

On 18 Feb 2006, at 23:56 , Marc Zeedar wrote:
> Yet why aren't people decrying the advent of audio-books and
> proclaiming that people will just listen and
> lose the ability to read?

Well, this one is easy. It takes MUCH longer to LISTEN to a book
than it takes to READ a book. I mean, what is the average wpm of a
spoken book? 200wpm? At most? Most readers can at least double
that, and that's with still sub-vocalizing what they read. Fast
readers can do five or ten times that.

Not to mention that you are far more likely to remember and recall
what you read than what you hear (well, at least for a large majority
of people). Being able to process difficult text at your own speed
instead of the reader's speed is crucial. How many math texts are
available in audio-book format? I'd guess precious few.

On 2/17/06 at 10:40 AM, hankatlmaipns.com (Henry Ruark) wrote:

> One lesson learned early-on was that books in traditional formats are
> treasures to be savored and not only tasted but fully-consumed, which
> for me has always meant marking for meaning and emphasis --and mine
> own added-notes-- on nearly every page. This has proven invaluable as
> a learning resource for me for so long it is even working habit for
> news-clips, nagazine pages, even any advertising verbiage
> kept-and-marked for what can be squeezed out and reworked; and it
> also makes remarkable (in memory) that particular content, via
> reshaping what might be there and dependent only upon the actual
> impact-of-words otherwise.

See, the culture of book-reverence I grew up with inculcated the value
that books are to be preserved in as pristine a state as possible, to be
passed along to whoever the next reader might be. So while writing in a
book may not be actual desecration, it's not far from it. ;>


[It took me 36 years before I could bring myself to write notes in a cookbook for this very reason. :-) -Adam]


On a more serious note, I encountered this a fair amount in school -
both with used textbooks in college, and even in school-owned textbooks
in K-12. And it always drove me crazy; the highlighting may not have
messed up the creator but it often made it harder for me to read, and
often enough I didn't agree with the notes themselves. :)


Travis Butler
tbutlermac.com

On Feb 22, 2006, at 15:49, Charlton Wilbur wrote:

> Baen's experiment demonstrated pretty clearly that (at least in his
> market) providing free digital copies of books did not materially
> affect the sales of traditionally printed books.

I did get interested in David Weber and Eric Flint's works because I
read them from the Baen Free Library. Unfortunately for Baen, my
interest was realized by checking the hardcopy books out of the local
public library....

Pete

On 23 Feb 2006, at 14:29 , Travis Butler wrote:
> On 2/17/06 at 10:40 AM, hankatlmaipns.com (Henry Ruark) wrote:
>
>> One lesson learned early-on was that books in traditional formats are
>> treasures to be savored and not only tasted but fully-consumed, which
>> for me has always meant marking for meaning and emphasis --and mine
>> own added-notes-- on nearly every page. This has proven invaluable as
>> a learning resource for me for so long it is even working habit for
>> news-clips, nagazine pages, even any advertising verbiage
>> kept-and-marked for what can be squeezed out and reworked; and it
>> also makes remarkable (in memory) that particular content, via
>> reshaping what might be there and dependent only upon the actual
>> impact-of-words otherwise.
>
> See, the culture of book-reverence I grew up with inculcated the value
> that books are to be preserved in as pristine a state as possible,
> to be
> passed along to whoever the next reader might be. So while writing
> in a
> book may not be actual desecration, it's not far from it. ;>

My father's copy of the American Heritage dictionary had writing all
over it. He added and annotated many definitions he found lacking,
and even occasionally added words that weren't included. The second
time I read _Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance_ I made
extensive notes in the margins, page headers, and black spaces at the
ends of chapters. In my paperback copies of The Lord of the Rings I
made annotations to the appendices which made later readings of the
book a very different experience as I jumped back and forth from the
text to the appropriate appendix and back. It was a lot like reading
a whole different book.

That said, when I read a book, even a paperback, it is usually
impossible for anyone to tell it's been read. I am careful with books
and treat them with the respect they're due. Writing in them is not
disrespectful, but rather the ultimate compliment. I means that
something in the book was important enough to move me to not,
underline, or expand on. It's rare, but it's no where near desecration.

> On a more serious note, I encountered this a fair amount in school -
> both with used textbooks in college, and even in school-owned
> textbooks
> in K-12. And it always drove me crazy; the highlighting may not have
> messed up the creator but it often made it harder for me to read, and
> often enough I didn't agree with the notes themselves. :)

Well, yes. With the understanding that on any given subject, most
people are morons, your chances of finding a well-annotated text book
are somewhere between slim and nil.

Highlighting, on the other hand, is just pure evil.


--
"There's nothin' wrong with bein' a son of a bitch." -- Gaspode the
Wonder Dog