Switching from Entourage to Mail?

On 03 Feb 2006, at 09:24 , Geoff WALLACE wrote:
> can edit any message received and sent.
>
> You must Open the Message in its own Window, cannot be edited in
> the Preview Window.

You're going to have to provide details on this. I've never been
able to edit any received messages from within Mail.app.

> On 03 Feb 2006, at 09:24 , Geoff WALLACE wrote:
>> can edit any message received and sent.
>>
>> You must Open the Message in its own Window, cannot be edited in
>> the Preview Window.
>
> You're going to have to provide details on this. I've never been
> able to edit any received messages from within Mail.app.

Hello Google Kreme,

I did not state clearly but I was talking about in Entourage 2004 11.2.1.

Would not use the Mail program because of its limitations.

You can have an AppleScript to shift Sent Mail to the Folder the sent email
to the same Folder as the received Message is filed in.

You can Edit Sent and Received Emails in Entourage 2004.

-------------
Geoff WALLACE
<http://macfixer.com.au>

> A more mindboggling omission is the inability to edit a received
> message.

Personally I have no need of this, and understand Apple's position.
For the high volume mailing lists where I want to keep/reply/search
individual messages, I subscribe to individual e-mails (instead of a
digest) and use a separate e-mail account.

It can be done though, and could probably be automated with
AppleScript and/or some shell scripts:

The actual message resides in ~/Library/Mail/<account>/INBOX.mbox/
Messages/xxx.emlx

It's text format and you can edit the body and subject, though I had
to restart Mail to see the change.

Mail displayed the old subject in the message list, but the new one
when the message was actually selected. I suspect it's copied the
subject into its sqlite database, 'Envelope Index'. You can call up
sqlite3 at the command line and poke around (while Mail's not running!)

Anyway, potential for hacking around the 'limitation'. Maybe someone
already has.

Cheers

On Feb 6, 2006, at 6:50 AM, Google Kreme wrote:

> On 03 Feb 2006, at 09:24 , Geoff WALLACE wrote:
>> can edit any message received and sent.
>>
>> You must Open the Message in its own Window, cannot be edited in
>> the Preview Window.
>
> You're going to have to provide details on this. I've never been
> able to edit any received messages from within Mail.app.

I opened the message I've quoted above in its own window, selected
some text, and hit Delete. Mail obeyed me, and deleted the message
(Undo recovered it). In this example, the server end of the chain is
the mac.com mail server.

   --John

I've tried looking this up in Mail Help, but it just spins and spins.

I have 15,000 messages in Entourage. I have folders in folders, and sometimes folders in folders in folders.

If I import that database, will Mail have the same set up -- i.e., folders in folders in folders, with all the same names?

Le 08 mars 2006 à 08:03, John Massengale a écrit :

> I have 15,000 messages in Entourage. I have folders in folders, and
> sometimes folders in folders in folders.
>
> If I import that database, will Mail have the same set up -- i.e.,
> folders in folders in folders, with all the same names?

I'd simplify the structure to ease things a bit. I have not tested
for months but in the middle of Panther when I tried (10.3.3-4 zone)
Mail didn't like folders in folders in folders if you tried to create
some (not tested on import). The limit seems to have disappeared
along the way (sometimes I move a folder into a folder in a folder by
accident… which), but imports are a long suffering science…

15000 messages is not that big btw… It's less than the size of ONE of
my folders (mailing lists… sigh)

How long have you let it spin? Imports are long! Now more than an
hour or two is too much as you don't have zillions of emails.
Simplify the structure, you'll be able to re-nest folders after the
import.

Also, have you rebuild Entourage databases afresh ? It may help.
(make a back up before)

But before doing so, I'd wait for other inputs…

Denis =G)

On 3/8/06 2:03 AM, "John Massengale" <johnmassengale.com> wrote:

> I have 15,000 messages in Entourage. I have folders in folders, and sometimes
> folders in folders in folders.  
>
> If I import that database, will Mail have the same set up -- i.e., folders in
> folders in folders, with all the same names?

I successfully imported 25,000 messages (according to Mail) in nested folders. It took a few hours, but the imported folders were as I wanted them.

However, I think I'm going back to Entourage, because I use some of the Auto Text Cleanup tools (rewrap paragraph, remove quoting, increase quoting) so much.

I’m surprised that Mail did not include these features.

> I've tried looking this up in Mail Help, but it just spins and spins.

And I still have no Help in Mail.

Actually Mail does have the increase/decrease quoting feature.  It's in the Format menu.

On or about 3/15/06 10:47 PM, thus spake "John Massengale"
<johnmassengale.com>:

> However, I think I'm going back to Entourage, because I use some of the Auto
> Text Cleanup tools (rewrap paragraph, remove quoting, increase quoting) so
> much.
>
> I¹m surprised that Mail did not include these features.

Actually, I think these features of Entourage are poorly done (and
Entourage's wrapping in general is pretty terrible, because it's too wide
for many clients and it's not a preference). I'm an Entourage user, but
before you switch back, you might like to consider using Mail in conjunction
with a decent text Service, such as WordService:

http://www.devon-technologies.com/products/freeware/services.php

m.

--
matt neuburg, phd = matttidbits.com, http://www.tidbits.com/matt/
pantes anthropoi tou eidenai oregontai phusei
AppleScript: the Definitive Guide - Second Edition!
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0596102119
Take Control of Word 2004, Tiger, and more -
http://www.takecontrolbooks.com/tiger-customizing.html
Subscribe to TidBITS! It's free and smart. http://www.tidbits.com/

On 15 Mar 2006, at 23:47 , John Massengale wrote:
> remove quoting, increase quoting) so much.
>
> I’m surprised that Mail did not include these features.

Command-' and command-shift-'

(Format -> Quote Level)


--
Rincewind had always been happy to think of himself as a racist. The
One Hundred Meters, the Mile, the Marathon -- he'd run them all.

On 3/17/06 12:17 PM, "Google Kreme" <gkremegmail.com> wrote:

> On 15 Mar 2006, at 23:47 , John Massengale wrote:
>> remove quoting, increase quoting) so much.
>>
>> I¹m surprised that Mail did not include these features.
>
> Command-' and command-shift-'
>
> (Format -> Quote Level)

Thanks, but I should have said I also use "text rewrap" a lot. I'm told
there might be some apple script to do that, but I haven't looked yet.

sw723 <[withheld] at wn.com.au> wrote:

> I hate to say it, but I think I am about to go back to Entourage...

As far as I can bring my testimony, I'm also switching to Entourage.

I'm using Mail.app since the first OS X install but the Mail 2
bundled with Tiger is really a badly designed and implemented piece
of code

- loses emails and folders
- loses attachments
- slow opening of files to attach (spinning ball of death), Maybe the
fault of spotlight, I also disabled spotlight.
- freezes sometimes

My system is Dual 2GHz, simple upgrade from the latest Panther to
Tiger 4.3
--
Vu Tien Khang, Luxembourg

On Mar 27, 2006, at 5:23 PM, Vu Tien Khang wrote:

> As far as I can bring my testimony, I'm also switching to Entourage.
>
> I'm using Mail.app since the first OS X install but the Mail 2
> bundled with Tiger is really a badly designed and implemented piece
> of code
>
> - loses emails and folders
> - loses attachments
> - slow opening of files to attach (spinning ball of death), Maybe the
> fault of spotlight, I also disabled spotlight.
> - freezes sometimes

Funny, having used Entourage for years, I switched to Mail when Tiger
was released. Doesn't lose email or folders; doesn't lose
attachments; doesn't open files slowly; doesn't freeze, though at
times it may be a bit slow refreshing smart folders.

Hence, the problem is not Mail but something else in your system.


Kirk
              Author of: How to Do Everything with Mac OS X Tiger
                      http://www.mcelhearn.com/htde.html
                - - - - - -
              Read my blog: Kirkville -- http://www.mcelhearn.com
           Musings, Opinion and Miscellanea, on Macs, iPods and more

Le 06-03-27 à 10:23, Vu Tien Khang a écrit :

> - loses emails and folders
> - loses attachments
> - slow opening of files to attach (spinning ball of death), Maybe the
> fault of spotlight, I also disabled spotlight.
> - freezes sometimes

I haven't seen any of these issues on any of my machines (1 ibook,
Powerbook, and Intel iMac) with tens of thousands of emails and
receiving hundreds of emails daily. The only issue I've really seen
with the Tiger version of Mail is a weird, intermittent crash when
expanding discussions... but I've never seen lost data or beachballing.

Have you tried the standard troubleshooting process? (checking
preferences, repairing the disk, etc.)

Neil
---
hushBOOM design
Web design, development & hosting -- Writing & Editing
http://www.hushboom.com/

On Mar 27, 2006, at 7:23 AM, Vu Tien Khang wrote:

> I'm using Mail.app since the first OS X install but the Mail 2
> bundled with Tiger is really a badly designed and implemented piece
> of code

For what it’s worth, I might comment that I have none of these
difficulties with Mail on my iMac G4 with Tiger 10.4.4, relatively
old now, running at 800 MHz on 786 MB RAM. So I wonder if the problem
may not be a fouled-up preferences file or a permissions problem or
something else outside the app itself.

Unfortunately I don’t know enough about the OS to comment
knowledgeably, but I do find it difficult to believe that this app,
which has served me well, “is really a badly designed and implemented
piece of code.” (But maybe I’m just enjoying the solid comfort and
feeling of safety that comes with a healthy dose of ignorance and
good luck?)

Anyway, hope this helps.

Ray



===========================================
Never ask what sort of computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user,
he'll tell you. If not, why embarrass him?
   - Tom Clancy

On Mar 28, 2006, at 1:55 AM, Neil Lee wrote:

> I haven't seen any of these issues on any of my machines (1 ibook,
> Powerbook, and Intel iMac) with tens of thousands of emails and
> receiving hundreds of emails daily. The only issue I've really seen
> with the Tiger version of Mail is a weird, intermittent crash when
> expanding discussions... but I've never seen lost data or
> beachballing.

I've used Mail in OS X for roughly 3 years now (probably a little
more). General setup is 5 mailboxes configured, two "active" ones.
Both fairly high traffic, one is for mailing lists that has 40k+
messages split between it's folders.

Tiger Mail has some great new features, but there are some big
gotchas as well. Searching is actually *slower* for me than in
Panther, don't ask me why. With all mailboxes locally cached,
searching in the inbox mailbox on only the subject field can take
15-20 seconds. Inbox size 2-3k messages.

Also, the spotlight import process (mds in the ps list) is a CPU hog.
I've had Mail's indexing bring my 1.67 GHz Ti to a halt until it
finishes, and it often is hitting 60-70% CPU utilization. I remember
one of the first OS X WWDCs, when one of the apple reps was talking
about how Avi had a new habit of checking any app he installed with
top in the terminal. Guess he's gotten busier.

I've never had anything that could be considered data loss, but the
performance is a step backwards for me.

Steve

ps. My mail pet peeve: Send or receive a message with a blank
subject, and every new reply will get a new "Re:" prepended to it.
That bug has been sitting in Apple's bug reporter since 2003, still
open, still not fixed. You think that would be an easy one.

On 3/28/06 00:55, "Kirk McElhearn" <kirklistswanadoo.fr> wrote:

> Funny, having used Entourage for years, I switched to Mail when Tiger
> was released. Doesn't lose email or folders; doesn't lose
> attachments; doesn't open files slowly; doesn't freeze, though at
> times it may be a bit slow refreshing smart folders.
>
> Hence, the problem is not Mail but something else in your system.

I've found multiple IMAP accounts makes any version of Mail cry and curl up
into a ball in the corner, so it's not all that and a bag of chips.


[OK, let's pull back from the Entourage is good/bad, Mail is good/bad and focus on practical information related to the switch from Entourage to Mail, for those that choose to make it. -Adam]


--
John C. Welch Writer/Analyst
Bynkii.com Mac and other opinions
jwelchbynkii.com

> [OK, let's pull back from the Entourage is good/bad, Mail is good/
> bad and focus on practical information related to the switch from
> Entourage to Mail, for those that choose to make it. -Adam]

Mac OS X 10.4.5 on Sawtooth G4 with 1Gb RAM.

When I changed from Panther I opted for the importing of essential
bits and when I started to use Mail there was chaos. I could not get
mail boxes to behave properly and I think the problem with conversion
may be down to automated importers, rather than the application
itself. After sorting out a weird duplication of "me" in the Address
Book and making sure the account was properly configured I found that
Mail got into line and is working fine now. I have 5 IMAP accounts
including a .mac account but I do not accumulate huge numbers of
messages in any mailboxes.

I think Mail is fine, works well and after getting used to the fixed
panel on the side it all seems to be pretty good. My one pet
hate........ which may apply to other versions of Mail and OS......is
with the sending of messages containing in line images or diagrams to
people running Windows. For some reason, some of these people find
that the message is truncated at the first image. That is, they read
my text, get the first image and then either no more message or the
rest of the message is packed away in the downloads folder. It has
meant some clients and consultants getting the wrong end of the stick
(or only one end of the stick) more than once, so now I have to pile
the images on at the end and make cross references in the text. :0[

I would not be surprised if there were no or few problems found with
Mail if it is started from scratch without any imports.

Drew

We're not having any problems with Mail and a G5 dual processor or a
667 G4 Powerbook; in fact, I think Mail is faster than Entourage, and
I love its Spotlight feature, which just flies on both computers.

Marilyn

As with many others, I don't have these problems (on either of my
machines). I suspect something on your machine.

One thing I would suspect would be some "must have" third party
"improvement" which didn't get upgraded from its Panther version to
its Tiger version. I'd suggest starting by looking at each thing you
have which uses (abuses) the InputMethod hack.

   --John