Should Macs have modems?

On 17/11/2005, at 3:33 PM, Theodore Czaplicki wrote:

> The USB modem, while it provides dial-up access, uses up a precious
> USB port.

Buy a hub (while you're buying the external modem, if it really is
necessary or desired).

[...]
> It is still needed for sending and receiving faxes.

There are other methods (covered in TidBITS) of sending and receiving
faxes. Faxes are also in the same path to extinction that dial-up
is; email and the web have replaced most use cases, especially for
home use (an office typically has a proper dedicated fax machine).

> When there is a great devastation, such as Hurricanes Katrina and
> Rita, only a modem can get through.

It doesn't seem to me that dial-up is any more or less reliable than
ADSL. In a disaster, there's certainly no guarantee that phone lines
will still work. A cellular-based dial-up modem would have a higher
chance of surviving, but cell networks are typically overloaded in
times of disaster. In fact, a radio or Satellite based network
connection seems much more likely to work in a disaster.

> If Apple felt the cost was too much, why not just up the cost of
> the computer to cover the extra cost? I'm sure no one would object.

I would. This is very specious reasoning - does it then follow that
Apple shouldn't have stopped including floppy drives because they're
needed when your CD drive dies?

If the aim is to make a clean, elegant, small, machine, then it is
necessary that old, outdated, technology be removed in favour of
new. Given the cost of an internal modem (or a floppy drive, for
that matter), I expect that design has more to do with the decision
than cost.

=Tony.Meyer

On Nov 16, 2005, at 6:33 PM, Theodore Czaplicki wrote:

> The USB modem, while it provides dial-up access, uses up a precious
> USB port. With the profit Apple is making, I think they could have
> left the internal modem in. If they feel it cost too much, they
> could simply raise the cost of the iMac to cover it.
>
> I think Apple made a mistake deleting the internal modem. It is
> still needed for sending and receiving faxes. When there is a great
> devastation, such as Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, only a modem can
> get through. If Apple felt the cost was too much, why not just up
> the vost of the computer to cover the extra cost? I'm sure no one
> would object. -- If you want to unsubscribe or change your address,
> use this link: http://emperor.tidbits.com/webx?unsub.3c3f6899!
> u=3054467e

1. In both Katrina and Rita, the dialup infrastructure did not fare
well in many places. For many, dialup would not have helped (for
many others it would).

2. There's an unstated assumption in this thread that uninterrupted
Internet access is necessary. It is for some. It isn't for others--
for them, two weeks without Internet is called a "vacation" or
"wonderfully peaceful break." (I'd like to retire and get into that
state.)

3. There's a further assumption that fax is necessary--again it is
for some. For me, my less-than-one-fax-per-year on average is better
handled at the inconvenience store* down the hill. (That fax count
doesn't include the tests I run now and then to make sure I can still
send and receive faxes here.)

4. Someone for whom uninterrupted Internet access is actually
necessary should already be equipped with a cable connection, a DSL
connection, and dialup, and anything else which comes along. With
research as to whose connections to the world would likely go out at
the same time (on the Oympic Peninsula, there are essentially two
pathways (not counting Sprint)...a fiber connection across the Sound
from Bremerton, and the NOAnet fiber along the Bonneville right of
way to Clallam PUD and others.)

(Despite what I said in 2 and 3 above, I would buy an Apple USB modem
to go with a modemless Mac. The company can pay for it. Unless I
retire before getting one of those.)

A few years ago, Sprint seemingly was in the same fiber as USWest, as
the chain saw which took out USWest service also took out Sprint.
(The chain saw was being used to clear away tree parts left over from
a wind storm, and the operator didn't notice that one particular
"branch" was different.) That has probably changed, but I don't
know. The cable company serving Port Townsend and nearby places was
talking with the operator providing WiFi access on selected
Washington State Ferry routes about getting emergency space on the
latter's wireless connection onto Whidbey Island and thence fiber. I
don't know whether that happened.

Surprisingly few businesses which should do this do it, however.

I'm reminded of Wells Fargo Bank back in the late 1970s and early
1980s (when it was a California bank). Wells Fargo (which then still
had the lobby stage coaches in significant branches) embraced the ATM
quite early. If you saw a branch with a single ATM machine, you knew
that the branch had been recently acquired. The company standard was
two machines (or more, if usage warranted). What wasn't obvious was
that their communication contracts required that the pathways
followed by the data be different--in many cases, the pathways
diverged at the wall of the branch, going down different streets. In
some case that wasn't feasible, and the split was a block or two
away. The two pathways wound up at different mainframe computers,
and didn't share facilities in between. It was *very* rare to see
both ATMs at a branch down at once.

   --John
* Inconvenience store: defined a few years ago in a science fiction
story as the place you go when it is inconvenient to go to a better
store.

Tony Meyer wrote:
> If the aim is to make a clean, elegant, small, machine, then it is
> necessary that old, outdated, technology be removed in favour of
> new. Given the cost of an internal modem (or a floppy drive, for
> that matter), I expect that design has more to do with the decision
> than cost.

I agree, since I think it's obvious why Apple got rid of the modem in
the new iMac. You can't use the built in iSight for video chat over a
dial up connection. You need broadband for video chat.

--
Paul Schinder
schinderpobox.com

Just a little historical reminder, here's the Tidbits Talk thread on the
new floppyless iMac.

<http://db.tidbits.com/getbits.acgi?tlkthrd=97>

Somebody predicted:
>What are you people smoking? Don't you remember the NeXT fiasco - a
>desktop computer without a floppy drive! Absurd. Only idiots would buy
>it. And the same will be true of iMac, unless (1) a floppy drive is added,
>and (2) SCSI devices can be supported readily. What is one supposed to do
>with existing hard drives, scanners, etc. without a SCSI port?

Of course on my trip to Micro Center last night I noticed you can still buy
USB floppy drives. I have no idea how many they sell a year, but around the
corner were 128K to 1GB thumb drives were readily available (and I saw 2GB
SD cards are now available).

The modem on my mac mini is worthless. I don't even have an analog phone
line to plug it into. Just DSL and my cell phone.

Kevin (hoping no one goes back to early tibits talk archives to pull out my
failed predictions)

On Nov 16, 2005, at 9:33 PM, Theodore Czaplicki wrote:

> The USB modem, while it provides dial-up access, uses up a precious
> USB port. With the profit Apple is making, I think they could have
> left the internal modem in. If they feel it cost too much, they
> could simply raise the cost of the iMac to cover it.

Now that well over 50% of home internet users in the US are on
broadband connections and predicted to grow to over 80%, and the
number of business users is even higher, it makes more sense for
Apple not to pass the cost of an internal modem to all potential
purchasers.

>
> I think Apple made a mistake deleting the internal modem. It is
> still needed for sending and receiving faxes.

There have been alternatives for faxing from your computer discussed
in TidBITS and Talk over the last few years.

And when there are so many very inexpensive alternatives, such as the
combination fax/copier/phone we picked up at Costco about 4 years ago
for around $100 that's been doing great.

> When there is a great devastation, such as Hurricanes Katrina and
> Rita, only a modem can get through.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not usual for the lines for phones
and/or electricity to go down during a hurricane?

> If Apple felt the cost was too much, why not just up the vost of
> the computer to cover the extra cost? I'm sure no one would object.

As a purchaser, I'd rather have the extra port for other stuff. And
I'm sure Apple is hoping people will plug another iPod into it.

Marilyn

>> I think Apple made a mistake deleting the internal modem. It is
>> still needed for sending and receiving faxes. When there is a great
>> devastation, such as Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, only a modem can
>> get through. ...
>
> 1. In both Katrina and Rita, the dialup infrastructure did not fare
> well in many places. For many, dialup would not have helped (for
> many others it would).
>
> 4. Someone for whom uninterrupted Internet access is actually
> necessary should already be equipped with a cable connection, a DSL
> connection, and dialup, and anything else which comes along. With
> research as to whose connections to the world would likely go out at
> the same time (on the Oympic Peninsula, there are essentially two
> pathways (not counting Sprint)...a fiber connection across the Sound
> from Bremerton, and the NOAnet fiber along the Bonneville right of
> way to Clallam PUD and others.)

Here in Raleigh, NC, we've had 3 or 4 big events starting with Fran in
96. Each time across most of the state, if you didn't have dialup, you
didn't have DSL or cable. Most of the damage was caused by trees taking
down the lines. (There's very little underground here except for some in
the pricey neighborhoods.) If trees fell across the power lines and took
them down, usually the phone and cable went down also. In Fran, Floyd,
and the "big ice storm" we had 5% to 15% of the tall trees down and that
meant most every street in the state had trees on lines.

One of the big disappointments with the new Intel Mac announcements
was that they killed off the modem on the MacBook Pro. What was
apple thinking. On desktops I can understand, but modems are still a
must for people who travel alot, especially abroad where wireless
hotspots may not be as ubiquitous as in the US.

Given my track record with the DVI-VGA adapter (I have about 5 of
these since I keep on forgetting to pack one and end up purchasing
one at my destination), I have a bad feeling about the USB modem.

Tomoharu Nishino

On 1/17/06 23:52, "cheshirenekomac.com" <cheshirenekomac.com> wrote:

> One of the big disappointments with the new Intel Mac announcements
> was that they killed off the modem on the MacBook Pro. What was
> apple thinking. On desktops I can understand, but modems are still a
> must for people who travel alot, especially abroad where wireless
> hotspots may not be as ubiquitous as in the US.

Getting rid of the modem on the motherboard lets them get rid of things like
the last remaining (internal) serial port, and other things that only were
used by the modem. Seeing as the external modem is what, 3" long, and weighs
maybe an ounce, I don't get all the fuss.

--
John C. Welch Writer/Analyst
Bynkii.com Mac and other opinions
jwelchbynkii.com

On 17 Jan 2006, at 22:52 , cheshirenekomac.com wrote:
> One of the big disappointments with the new Intel Mac announcements
> was that they killed off the modem on the MacBook Pro. What was
> apple thinking. On desktops I can understand, but modems are still a
> must for people who travel alot, especially abroad where wireless
> hotspots may not be as ubiquitous as in the US.

Really? Seems to me wireless hotspots are far more common in Europe,
Japan, and even Oz than they are in the US. Or at least so I am led
to believe by the people I communicate with in Europe, Japan, and
even Oz.

The modem was very useful to a very small percentage of users. A
small enough percentage that Apple felt an optional bit of kit was
preferable to taking space for a built-in option for everyone that 95%
+ people would never use. I know the modem on my iBook has never
been used. Not even once to check that it did, in fact, work. I
have occasionally used the modem on my iMac to send a fax to the few
Luddites and/or doctors who required faxing over emailed pdfs.


--
Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see

On Jan 18, 2006, at 1:15 PM, Google Kreme wrote:

> Really? Seems to me wireless hotspots are far more common in Europe,
> Japan, and even Oz than they are in the US. Or at least so I am led
> to believe by the people I communicate with in Europe, Japan, and
> even Oz.

As someone who travels to 3rd world areas where DSL and/or wireless
hotspots are less common, and also has to keep track of commercial
camera equipment (read several cases of it), one more small item to
lose is an annoyance. OTOH, I do have some PCMCIA modem cards from
the old days - does anyone know if they will work in the new card slot?

Roger

Roger Henriques
rdh at rhen dot com

[ The new ExpressCard slot is not compatible with older PCMCIA devices. For starters, it's much narrower. 34mm vs PC Card's 54mm. --Andrew ]

On Jan 18, 2006, at 10:15 AM, John C. Welch wrote:

> Getting rid of the modem on the motherboard lets them get rid of
> things like
> the last remaining (internal) serial port, and other things that
> only were
> used by the modem. Seeing as the external modem is what, 3" long,
> and weighs
> maybe an ounce, I don't get all the fuss.

Some of the relatively recent internal modems were USB. And the ones
in the Mini were heavy CPU users with some sort of interface.

But it still leads to simplification to delete them. Apple will know
it was wrong if the USB external modem sales reach a healthy
percentage of the new machine sales. (They won't, of course, tell us
except possibly by re-adding a modem.)

And one might ask: when was the last time Apple shipped a *quality*
built-in modem? We have a notable number of phone lines around here
which support even bad PC WinModems and don't support Apple modems.
(ISP support notices these things.)

   --John (when was the last time *anyone* shipped a truly high-
quality modem in the consumer market?)

On Jan 18, 2006, at 11:51 AM, Roger Henriques wrote:

> OTOH, I do have some PCMCIA modem cards from
> the old days - does anyone know if they will work in the new card
> slot?

They work if you can fit them in. More directly said: "no".

   --John
--
John W Baxter
jwbaxtermac.com

John C. Welch said:

>Getting rid of the modem on the motherboard lets them get rid of things like
>the last remaining (internal) serial port, and other things that only were
>used by the modem. Seeing as the external modem is what, 3" long, and weighs
>maybe an ounce, I don't get all the fuss.


The Apple external modem is a soft-modem (which is part of why it can be
so small) and I've already heard from folks complaining about its
performance (or lack of same.)

Things would be different if there was a thriving third-party market for
portable V.92 Mac-modems, but there are none. In fact, the only other
Mac-compatible V.92 USB modem that I know of is:

Best Data V.92 USB external fax modem for Macintosh
http://www.bestdata.com/index.php?file=c-allproddesc&iProductId=16161

The Best Data modem is a good product, but it's not as portable as one
would prefer.

I don't know the technical reasons, but apparently you can't purchase a
V.92 USB modem meant for a Windows computer, tweak the initialization
string, and have it work with your Macintosh, like you could with earlier
modems. So for now the choices are the Apple soft-modem's poor
performance, or finding room to carry the Best Data modem with you. An
internal modem would be a much better choice.





Randy B. Singer
Co-Author of: The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th and 6th editions)

Routine OS X Maintenance and Generic Troubleshooting
http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html

On Jan 18, 2006, at 3:15 PM, John W Baxter wrote:

> They work if you can fit them in. More directly said: "no".

My enthusiasm for the new laptops is fading... rumour has it that
'native' versions of Adobe software may not be available until the
end of the year, and strange as it seems in this modern age, I use
the PCMCIA slot on my tiBook a lot, as the fastest way to download
from camera cards. <sigh>

Roger
Roger Henriques
rdh at rhen dot com

Quoting "John C. Welch" <jwelchbynkii.com>:

> Getting rid of the modem on the motherboard lets them get rid of things like
> the last remaining (internal) serial port, and other things that only were
> used by the modem. Seeing as the external modem is what, 3" long, and weighs
> maybe an ounce, I don't get all the fuss.

Not weight -- memory. People constantly forget things that aren't built-in.
However since a modem is usually not needed at home (presuming broadband
everywhere), you can just leave the modem in the laptop bag.

Quoting "John C. Welch" <jwelchbynkii.com>:

> Getting rid of the modem on the motherboard lets them get rid of things like
> the last remaining (internal) serial port, and other things that only were
> used by the modem. Seeing as the external modem is what, 3" long, and weighs
> maybe an ounce, I don't get all the fuss.

Meant to add to my last comment:

Bet someone comes out with an express card with both firewire 800 and
modem (and
perhaps even external SATA) on one card.

[Fibrechannel, anyone? -Andrew]

Hi all, first post ever here even if a tidbits follower since… well…
too much time ;)


Le 18 janv. 2006, à 19:15, John C. Welch a écrit :

> Getting rid of the modem on the motherboard lets them get rid of
> things like
> the last remaining (internal) serial port, and other things that only
> were
> used by the modem. Seeing as the external modem is what, 3" long, and
> weighs
> maybe an ounce, I don't get all the fuss.

One side effect too is the coming problem of pro musician users. As
even right now MIDI interfaces are only "tight" (spot on time) using
serial interfaces and not this (censored) USB thingy. A lot of people
are still for a reason using serial interfaces even no more supported
by MOTU for example as it's just better that way. The products like the
Gee Three you plug on the modem internal port does the trick and makes
happy users.

It's not an issue on laptops, but it'll be on future desktop macintels.

Note that an eventual move of MIDI interfaces to USB2 may not be the
solution as the accurate timing problems are originating from the core
of the USB protocol. Firewire is way better for time tight uses even if
it's not real time but the only MIDI interfaces available using FW are
also audio interface (with a MIDI port thrown in for the show).

Sigh…

Denis H] lepetitmartien
=======================================================
M.I.C. http://www.macmusic.org

On 19 Jan 2006, at 08:51, Roger Henriques wrote: > As someone who travels to 3rd world areas where DSL and/or wireless > hotspots are less common, and also has to keep track of commercial > camera equipment (read several cases of it), one more small item to > lose is an annoyance. Or as someone who, until recently, travelled internationally on business but on a tight budget under a restrictive travel policy and had to stay in homestays and motels that didn't have the faster connections of corporate hotels.  I used dialup via a cellphone almost exclusively for three months during our recent emigration and resettlement, bar the times I could get wifi in a cafe.  Without my modem equipped iBook, I'd not have secured my job, permit, new home etc etc.  For some, essential; for others, not. --  bignoseduglyguy http://www.bignoseduglyguy.com http://www.bignoseduglyguy.com/no8wire http://www.bignoseduglyguy.com/bnugwiki

On 1/19/06 00:33, "kevinvanhaaren.net" <kevinvanhaaren.net> wrote:

> Not weight -- memory. People constantly forget things that aren't built-in.
> However since a modem is usually not needed at home (presuming broadband
> everywhere), you can just leave the modem in the laptop bag.

Well, I'm not exactly sure that apple should use "They might forget it" as a
reason to make a bit of hardware built-in or not.

--
John C. Welch Writer/Analyst
Bynkii.com Mac and other opinions
jwelchbynkii.com

Really?  Seems to me wireless hotspots are far more common in Europe, Japan, and even Oz than they are in the US.  Or at least so I am led to believe by the people I communicate with in Europe, Japan, and even Oz