Sponsored in part by... Smith Micro StuffIt Deluxe 12: breakthrough compression of MP3 files, PDFs,
iWork and MS Office files! Reduce JPEG file sizes with no loss in
quality, burn to CD/DVD, back up archives to iDisk and more. Buy
today for only $59.99! <http://www.stuffit.com/mac/deluxe/tb/>

 [F] TidBITS  / TidBITS  / TidBITS Talk  /

Power Mac G5/1.8: The buggiest Mac ever?

[McCabe, Steve]Steve McCabe - 09:30am Oct 6, 2005 PST
Guest User

Hi, folks

There's a story that I'm wondering how many people know about. I'm usually
fairly up on most Mac developments (I try to justify it to myself by telling
myself that it's because I need to for work, but the fact is that we only
have two-and-a-half Macs in our home office, and I'm just sad), but this one
was news to me.

The story started back in March. I bought my wife a new Power Mac G5; we got
a 1.8GHz single-processor model from the Apple Store in Tampa, and had them
install an extra gigabyte of RAM. We also picked up, while we were there, a
Bluetooth dongle and wireless keyboard and mouse, and the whole thing was
connected to a new 20" Cinema Display. A fair old piece of kit, if you ask
me.

For a month or two, Deborah (for that is the lovely and talented Mrs.
McCabe's name) was delighted with her new Mac a definite improvement over
the eMac she'd been using until then, although she missed the ten-minute
breaks while she made PDFs.

Then one day, while she was out, I thought I'd do her the favour of
upgrading the OS to OS X 10.4. From that day on, we had nothing but grief.
Applications would hang routinely usually when an open or save dialogue
box was accessed, but not exclusively requiring a force-restart from the
power button on the front of the case. Suspecting a disc problem, we
disconnected the network, and even tried installing a new internal hard
disc. We stopped using her Firelight external firewire hard disc. Discs were
reformatted, OSes were re-installed, Bluetooth was removed, and still the
problems persisted. Her computer would crash and crash hard every two
hours, almost reliably. And, as an added inconvenience, the optical-drive
tray decided that it didn't care to eject discs.

We took the machine back to the shop, and they replaced the optical drive.
Then, on the next visit, the replaced the logic board. On the third visit,
it was a new power supply and a promise that this was the last time they'd
change components the next time would see us getting a whole new computer.

Then last week I found a reference on the MacInTouch website to ongoing
problems with this machine. Purely by chance I was surfing around, just
reading the latest Mac news I discovered that this particular machine had
a fairly major flaw, one of which Apple's engineers were well aware. There
was even a page devoted to the problem in the Support section of Apple's
website:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=302212

A little more investigation led me to this site:
http://www.g5freeze.com

I was quite surprisingly surprised. Here was a quite major, deep-seated flaw
in a computer we owned, and I'd never known about it! We'd already told the
Apple Store that we were bringing the computer back for a replacement, and
so the following evening, we packed it up and took it in. To our total
satisfaction, our old, failing machine was replaced with the current
entry-level Power Mac a dual-processor 2.0GHz machine with double the RAM,
twice the hard-disc space, a double-layer Superdrive, and (I believe) a much
more capable video card. They even restarted the warranty to date from last
Friday, not last March. The manager did make the point, though, that we were
getting an upgraded machine because the 1.8GHz single-processor Mac was no
longer in production, and so they had no more to give out. I get the
impression, though, that this was a little bit of face-saving on Apple's
part "We're giving you the nearest equivalent, not a real upgrade."
Whatever the politics of the matter, we're pleased with the outcome.

All in all, a very satisfactory outcome to quite a problematic story.
Deborah lost many hours of productivity, as well as a significant proportion
of her sanity, during the months that this was a problem. I don't recall
when we first took the machine in for repair, so I have no way of knowing
whether this issue was already known to Apple when we first encountered it.
But I'm surprised, as I've said, that I'd not seen more information around
the Web regarding this issue. Of course, once I found out about it, I
started looking and noticing *lots* of information, but for about six months
I thought that we'd just got *really* unlucky with our Mac.

And the new Mac's running just fine.

Steve



Mark as Read
  OutlineAll MessagesOlder MessagesOldest MessagesNewest MessagesNewer Messages

Matt Neuburg (apparently) - Oct 7, 2005 8:24 am (#1 Total: 10)  

Reply to this message
via email  

Photo of Author
Posts: 2625
Re: Power Mac G5/1.8: The buggiest Mac ever?

On or about 10/6/05 9:30 AM, thus spake "Steve McCabe" <stevemccabe.net>:

> our old, failing machine was replaced with the current
> entry-level Power Mac a dual-processor 2.0GHz machine

Let's hope the new machine keeps working well. The reason I didn't buy a
dual-processor G5 is that I'd heard *it* was the buggiest Mac ever. Of
course, that's just anecdotal, but I sure heard a lot of anecdotes. m.

--
matt neuburg, phd = matttidbits.com, http://www.tidbits.com/matt/
pantes anthropoi tou eidenai oregontai phusei
AppleScript: the Definitive Guide -
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0596005571/somethingsbymatt
Take Control of Word 2004, Tiger, and more -
http://www.takecontrolbooks.com/tiger-customizing.html
Subscribe to TidBITS! It's free and smart. http://www.tidbits.com/



dshepherdson (apparently) - Oct 7, 2005 8:24 am (#2 Total: 10)  

Reply to this message
via email  

Photo of Author
Posts: 19
Re: Power Mac G5/1.8: The buggiest Mac ever?

On 6 Oct 2005, at 5.30 pm, Steve McCabe wrote:

> Then last week I found a reference on the MacInTouch website to
> ongoing
> problems with this machine. Purely by chance I was surfing around,
> just
> reading the latest Mac news I discovered that this particular
> machine had
> a fairly major flaw, one of which Apple's engineers were well
> aware. There
> was even a page devoted to the problem in the Support section of
> Apple's
> website:
>
> http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=302212
>
> A little more investigation led me to this site:
> http://www.g5freeze.com
>
> I was quite surprisingly surprised. Here was a quite major, deep-
> seated flaw
> in a computer we owned, and I'd never known about it!

I can sympathise with the difficulties you have encountered, having
had ongoing problems with my Power Mac G4 over the course of a year
or so (just about every component of the machine was replaced, before
it went out of warranty, but it was difficult to tell if anything
fixed the problem, which was an intermittent one without any obvious
trigger -- always the hardest to tell). It's good that you were able
to get a replacement machine!

I too was surprised to read a mention in passing on an, ahem, rumour
site of the 1.8 GHz G5 problem (supposed to be something they're
working on a fix for in the 10.4.3 update). It does seem to have
slipped past most of the usual Mac sites.

I must poke fun at the title of that Apple Support article, though:
it says 'Power Mac G5 (Late 2004) 1.8GHz models stop responding
randomly'. That sounds like a good thing, to me -- I wouldn't want my
computer to be responding randomly!

Perhaps they meant 'randomly stop responding'... :)

David

atlauren (apparently) - Oct 11, 2005 7:10 am (#3 Total: 10)  

Reply to this message
via email - Practicing random acts of punditry.  

Photo of Author
Posts: 802
Re: Power Mac G5/1.8: The buggiest Mac ever?

At 8:24 AM -0700 10/7/05, Matt Neuburg wrote:
>Let's hope the new machine keeps working well. The reason I didn't buy a
>dual-processor G5 is that I'd heard *it* was the buggiest Mac ever. Of
>course, that's just anecdotal, but I sure heard a lot of anecdotes. m.

Data point: My dual-1.8 has been flawless.

--
Andrew Laurence
atlaurenuci.edu

1idontcare - Oct 11, 2005 7:10 am (#4 Total: 10)  

Reply to this message
 

Photo of Author
Posts: 30
Re: Buggiest Mac Ever?

I also have to share with you that I have had my fair share of problems with Apple. They simply cannot admit an error when one is made. You are lucky that you are savvy enough to do your research. Now, think of all the other poor souls who will never figure this out and just give up in frustration? They will call Apple Care dozens of times only to be told of some sort of problem here or there and Apple will never admit the greater fault. It is sad that Apple acts this way!

When I upgraded from Panther 10.3.9 to Tiger, I had 3 months of poblems that were awful and, being a Mac consultant, I called AppleCare a million times and they would NEVER admit that there was a problem upgrading from Panther 10.3.9 to Tiger. That Tiger was "sensitive" to ANY small problems that were existent in Panther and that it was Panther's fault that Tiger was having so much trouble. I finally had to totally destroy my hard drive and make it "virgin" to install Tiger. From then on it worked flawlessly. It finally took ONE honest AppleCare person to tell the truth so that I could solve my problem. I spent over 30 hours on the phone with AppleCare before getting this single honest answer!!! I feel for those wh give up in despperation and, probably, switching to a PC because it is "easier" somehow. I own 2 PCs and the problems there are worse!!

Poor souls on a journey into darkness!

Anyse

mmatty (apparently) - Oct 11, 2005 6:57 pm (#5 Total: 10)  

Reply to this message
via email  

Photo of Author
Posts: 382
Re: Power Mac G5/1.8: The buggiest Mac ever?



On Oct 11, 2005, at 10:10 AM, Andrew Laurence wrote:

> Data point: My dual-1.8 has been flawless.

I've got a dual 2G and I've been in love with it since the day we met
just over 2 years ago.

Marilyn

r2g - Oct 13, 2005 3:46 pm (#6 Total: 10)  

Reply to this message
 

Photo of Author
Posts: 46
Re: Buggiest Mac Ever?

On one hand I think that reports on buggy machines are more obvious because people who are happy don't bother to post. On the other hand, my own statistics -- out of six Macs we've owned over the years, 3 had hardware problems at a young age. They weren't as dramatic as some stories I hear, but to have to fix a machine right out of the box without the benefit of an IT Department or a different machine to work on while yours is being fixed, is just plain demoralizing.

As to Apple and Mac technicians in general, I take them with a whole big grain of salt. I've had the most irrelevant suggestions made to me over the years and I soon figured it was for the most part a waste of time -- especially on the phone.

The one time I took a machine in-person was with an iMac G3 (blueberry) that I managed to mess up by upgrading to OSX without first updating the firmware. I took it to the genius bar at the apple store and they said either the logic board or the video had to be replaced. Since either option was in the hundreds of $ and the machine was out of warranty, I just paid them $50 for their "diagnosis" and took it back home. There it sat on the floor in the corner of the room until I read the article in Tidbits about solving the problem by updating the firmware after the fact.

I've done tech support myself so I'm not being down on the technicians or people manning the phone lines and what they have to put up with. I think the problem is inherent in computer technology -- hardware *and* software -- it's just not designed for the average/non-specializing person to understand.

ghadlow (apparently) - Oct 14, 2005 11:52 am (#7 Total: 10)  

Reply to this message
via email  

Photo of Author
Posts: 1
Re: Power Mac G5/1.8: The buggiest Mac ever?

I have a client who has one of those G5 single processors. He has had
endless problems with that machine. It has had 2 logic board changes,
optical drive replacement and ram as well. It still wont open the CD tray
immediately. He is at his wits end now - it constantly bombs and crashes.
I am going to pass on this information to him.
Gen
Durban South Africa.
 



atlauren (apparently) - Nov 15, 2005 5:03 pm (#8 Total: 10)  

Reply to this message
via email - Practicing random acts of punditry.  

Photo of Author
Posts: 802
At 9:30 AM -0700 10/6/05, Steve McCabe wrote:
> There
>was even a page devoted to the problem in the Support section of Apple's
>website:
>
>http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=302212
>
>A little more investigation led me to this site:
>http://www.g5freeze.com

Apple today released new firmware for the single-1.8 machines.
Separate firmware for Panther and Tiger OSes.

For 10.4.3:
http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/powermacg5late2004systemfirmwareupdateformacosx1043.html
For 10.3.9:
http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/powermacg5late2004systemfirmwareupdateformacosx1039.html

--
Andrew Laurence
atlaurenuci.edu

irene (apparently) - Nov 16, 2005 11:40 am (#9 Total: 10)  

Reply to this message
via email  

Photo of Author
Posts: 2
Re: Power Mac G5/1.8: The buggiest Mac ever?

  Andrew Laurence wrote:

> Apple today released new firmware for the single-1.8 machines.
> Separate firmware for Panther and Tiger OSes.
>
> For 10.4.3:
> http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/
> powermacg5late2004systemfirmwareupdateformacosx1043.html
> For 10.3.9:
> http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/
> powermacg5late2004systemfirmwareupdateformacosx1039.html

Many thanks for posting this information. I'm currently running 10.3.9
and am wondering if, after runniing this firmware updater, moving up to
Tiger would make sense. I have the software, but having heard of
others' problems with their G5/1.8s I've been reluctant to install it.
Any thoughts?

Thanks again,

irene


TheRonster (apparently) - Nov 22, 2005 2:36 pm (#10 Total: 10)  

Reply to this message
via email  

Photo of Author
Posts: 4
Re: Power Mac G5/1.8: The buggiest Mac ever?

   I’ve not had the dubious pleasure of working on one of these, but I doubt it qualifies as buggiest Mac ever.
    That honor belongs to the Power Mac 5200/75, an all-in-one model, and its Quadra-case cousin the PowerMac 6200. These were 1995 models with PPC 603e chips.
    Apple sold a TON of the 5200 LCs to schools, and the 6200 was a popular consumer model. I believe this was the Spindler era, when Apple tried to set up shop next to the washing machines in Sears, of all places.
    Anyway ... There were random hard freezes all over the place. Apple blamed the users and programs. Users blamed Apple and us technicians. It was darn frustrating to completely wipe a drive, do a clean MacOS install (7.5.1, if I recall), and then have the mouse pointer abruptly freeze on a menu or folder window with nothing else running.
    After months and months of growing frustration, Apple finally admitted there were severe hardware problems — bad logic boards and bad cache DIMMs from particular vendors, as well as bad video harnesses. A “repair extension program” costing millions and millions was unveiled. Apple produced a small utility that did hardware probes and announced exactly how unlucky you were.
    As if that weren’t enough, a popular education bundle included a Microsoft Encyclopedia (?) CD with tens of thousands of bad installers, plus at least one other CD title that simply would not run with the standard Power Mac 5200 configuration of 8 MB RAM. Oh, and the grounding clips would dig into the circuit board, so we replaced those with a new design, too.
    I did these repairs for thousands of Mac 5200s for Kodak, working under contract with Apple. It would not be unusual in a school lab of 30 Macs to find 18-22 with bad logic boards.
    I used real Sticky Notes to designate which Macs in a lab needed a new cache DIMM, which ones needed a new logic board (which included a DIMM), and which ones needed the video harness replaced. I think they ALL got a second 8Mb RAM chip, by way of a “Oops, sorry, I goofed” gift from Apple. I went through a lot of batteries on my power screwdriver that summer, fall and winter. (Apple could not keep up with the need for refurbished logic boards.)
    I believe this was also the model that you could crash by rapidly pressing the audio volume button on the front of the bezel, although that may be have been the 5300. Apple’s fix was an extension that simply disabled that button!
    Oh, these also had a lot of buggy Ethernet, which I don’t remember Apple admitting. We sold a bunch of 3rd party cards to get them on networks.
    What fun it was to go into someone’s home to work on their bug-ridden 6200 and find out they also had that piece o’ crap Applevision 17” monitor, which was the subject of yet another Repair Extension. Then, tell them that the only replacement 6200 logic board you had left was a later revision than theirs, so they’d have to wait some more ....
    You might say Apple was not well-run those days.



  OutlineAll MessagesOlder MessagesOldest MessagesNewest MessagesNewer Messages


 [F] TidBITS  / TidBITS  / TidBITS Talk  / Power Mac G5/1.8: The buggiest Mac ever?




Add a message

To add a message to this discussion, you must be a registered user. Enter your email address below. If you have an account associated with the email address you enter, you will be prompted for your password. If not, you'll be able to create a new account with no fuss.

Enter your email address:

Submit