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Small/old cross-platform backup solution

[keith.kaiser27]keith.kaiser27 - 08:37am Sep 21, 2005 PST

Sometimes the problem that arises isn't the understanding of a technology, how it works or what its all about but how to ask a question in the first place. The terminology we used in daily conversation rarely is the technical description of whatever it is we are trying to talk about in the first place. That is my problem here so I'm going to start by telling you what I have, then asking what it is I need to do to solve the problem, all without using big words that I don't understand.

OK, I have a Mac Mini connected to an older AirPort router, and it has two external firewire drives connected. I have a Windows XP box (my wife's actually), connected via Cat5 to the same AirPort, with a second drive inside. I have an older Mac OS 9 (not Mac OS X compatible) Mac laying around, and I have an old Windows 98 machine laying around, neither of which is in use. I also have a 400 GB hard drive, that I would like to set up in one of those boxes in the basement where the cable router and AirPort hang out to write backup from my Mac and XP box stuff to.

What kind of backup scheme should I use? I've heard that 'mirroring' is too slow, but pure backup can be difficult, time consuming and hard to use when/if recovery is necessary. But someone said something about "ghosting" my data from one machine to another, this sounded promising, can someone give me their best ideas on how to make sure I don't lose anything next time one of my hard drives takes a nose dive?


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charlie_franklin - Sep 22, 2005 6:29 am (#1 Total: 8)  

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Re: Small/old cross-platform backup solution

Can't help much with the overall backup problems you have, but one suggestion I can make based on what I have done is to set up the XP box so it has a shortcut in the highest level of the users folder that points to a folder on a Mac. That way all of the documents you create on the XP machine will be actually stored on the Mac. This means you only have to back up the Mac, and not worry about the Windows machine, other then the system and applications.

Charlie

edward (apparently) - Sep 23, 2005 10:24 am (#2 Total: 8)  

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Re: Small/old cross-platform backup solution

At 08:37 AM 09/21/2005 -0700, keith.kaiser27 wrote:
>OK, I have a Mac Mini connected to an older AirPort router, and it has two
>external firewire drives connected. I have a Windows XP box (my wife's
>actually), connected via Cat5 to the same AirPort, with a second drive
>inside. I have an older Mac OS 9 (not Mac OS X compatible) Mac laying
>around, and I have an old Windows 98 machine laying around, neither of
>which is in use. I also have a 400 GB hard drive, that I would like to set
>up in one of those boxes in the basement where the cable router and
>AirPort hang out to write backup from my Mac and XP box stuff to.

Is there a particular reason you want to use one of the old boxes? For
various reasons it's going to be a lot easier to do the backups on one of
the newer boxes. Faster hardware will back the backups run faster. Those
old machines probably don't have 100MB Ethernet, which makes a big
difference backup on the amount of data on newer systems (Tiger, XP).

>What kind of backup scheme should I use? I've heard that 'mirroring' is
>too slow, but pure backup can be difficult, time consuming and hard to use
>when/if recovery is necessary. But someone said something about "ghosting"
>my data from one machine to another, this sounded promising,

"Ghosting" refers to using Norton Ghost, which is just a backup program
with a really catchy name. AFAIK it's a good backup program, but I have no
experience with it.

>can someone give me their best ideas on how to make sure I don't lose
>anything next time one of my hard drives takes a nose dive?

Well, if you want a prescription, here goes:

1) Pick either the Mac mini or the XP box to be the backup server. The
backup server should have a DVD writer. (We'll still use that 400GB HD, but
remember that one backup isn't enough.) It should also have a fast
connection for the 400GB HD (USB2 or FireWire). If you don't have a DVD
writer then you can get started with only the 400GB HD, but you should
acquire an additional backup method ASAP. These computers have too much
data on them for CD to be a reasonable backup method.

2) Get either Retrospect 6 Desktop for Macintosh, or Retrospect 7
Professional for Windows, depending on which system you decide to run it
on. These are the versions which can back up a remote computer via the LAN.
They are basically the same as far as you are concerned, even though the
Windows version is a higher level. Operation is very similar. I switched
from running backups on a Mac to running them on Windows a couple of years
ago, and I hardly noticed the difference.

3) Install the main program on one computer and the client on the other.
When you set up the backups, make sure to use the method which connects to
the client; do not back up from a networked disk.

4) Set up backups for each HD using the "all files except cache files"
selector. You can exclude other files later, but don't fall into the trap
of trying to decide what to back up. The default should be everything; then
make exceptions.

5) On the 400GB HD, set up a backup set for each of the other HDs. (You
could use one backup set for them all, but this gives a little more
flexibility.)

6) Set up two backup sets on DVDs. Check the ads at Office Depot etc for
cheap writable DVDs, making sure to get the kind that your DVD writer uses.
Should be well under $0.50 each if you are in the US. Also, get a marker
designed specifically for writing on CD/DVD -- I recently found a good one
made by Sharpie; some older ones from Fellowes didn't work well. If you
can't find the special marker then use a regular Sharpie, but use the "fine
point" rather than the extra fine point; the "fine point" is actually a
pretty wide point that isn't likely to scratch the DVD. Remember that it's
the TOP of the CD/DVD that's most vulnerable to damage.

7) Schedule a backup of all HDs every night to the 400GB HD, and backups to
the DVDs twice weekly, alternating the two DVD backup sets.

8) Create whatever kind of reminder you need to force yourself to verify
each day that the backups ran the night before. This check will also
discover when a DVD filled up, at which point you'll feed it a new one;
label it when you do.

9) Find a different location for one of the DVD backups. At the least, put
it in a different part of the house. Somewhere else -- like a drawer at
work -- is better. Each day when the DVD backup runs, swap the DVD sets.

10) Nothing is going to make recovery easy. Make sure you have the backups,
and bootable CDs/DVDs for each system, and at least you can figure out the
recovery when necessary. The professional approach is to actually test out
reloading from backups to make sure it goes smoothly when required, but I
don't know of anyone doing that in a home or very small office situation.

11) Try to find a place to donate the old computers. But do a low level
reformat of the HDs before letting them out of your hands.

Edward
Art Works by Melynda Reid: http://paleo.org


Nik (apparently) - Sep 23, 2005 4:10 pm (#3 Total: 8)  

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Re: Small/old cross-platform backup solution


On Sep 23, 2005, at 11:24 AM, Edward Reid wrote:

What kind of backup scheme should I use? I've heard that 'mirroring' is

too slow, but pure backup can be difficult, time consuming and hard to use

when/if recovery is necessary. But someone said something about "ghosting"

my data from one machine to another, this sounded promising,



"Ghosting" refers to using Norton Ghost, which is just a backup program

with a really catchy name. AFAIK it's a good backup program, but I have no

experience with it.


Actually, Symantec Ghost is a disk imaging program. It's not suitable for incremental backups, but rather just for mirroring the whole drive and easily restoring it.

Software-wise, I'd recommend picking up Retrospect Desktop which comes with two client licenses. You put your full license on a Mac or Windows box which acts as your backup server and storage point, and then your clients can connect over the network to the backup server via any number of scheduled backup scripts.

If you pick up a copy of the Take Control of MacOS X backups book, it will give you some great basics on how to back up depending on your acceptable risk level. Its advice is pretty much just as applicable to Windows as to Macs, just specifics of what you will back up might be different.

Retrospect makes this all easier as well.

In order to host Retrospect in this set up, I THINK you need at least OS X (some version) or Windows 2000 or XP on your backup server. It doesn't matter too much which you use, AFAIK. Someone on this list will certainly correct me if that's not the case.

--Nik

edward (apparently) - Sep 23, 2005 7:45 pm (#4 Total: 8)  

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At 04:10 PM 09/23/2005 -0700, Nik wrote:
>Actually, Symantec Ghost is a disk imaging program. It's not suitable for
>incremental backups, but rather just for mirroring the whole drive and
>easily restoring it.

Originally it was. I don't know the current state on the Mac. Last year I
bought a copy for Windows (partly curiosity, partly potential use), but
realized that it's just a backup program with a couple of gimmicks. One
gimmick is that it allows you to mount the backup set as a disk image. But
that backup set definitely is not an image of the source drive, just a
backup that can pretend to be a disk image.

>In order to host Retrospect in this set up, I THINK you need at least OS X
>(some version) or Windows 2000 or XP on your backup server. It doesn't
>matter too much which you use, AFAIK. Someone on this list will certainly
>correct me if that's not the case.

To run the current versions of Retrospect, this is true. Running Retrospect
with OS9 or W98 would require finding an older version. I think that even
an older version could back up remote OSX and XP systems, but I'm not sure.
Certainly this complication is yet another reason not to try to use an old
computer as a backup server.

Edward
Art Works by Melynda Reid: http://paleo.org


dshepherdson (apparently) - Sep 27, 2005 3:37 pm (#5 Total: 8)  

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Re: Small/old cross-platform backup solution

On 24 Sep 2005, at 3.45 am, Edward Reid wrote:

> To run the current versions of Retrospect, this is true. Running
> Retrospect
> with OS9 or W98 would require finding an older version. I think
> that even
> an older version could back up remote OSX and XP systems, but I'm
> not sure.
> Certainly this complication is yet another reason not to try to use
> an old
> computer as a backup server.

If you buy the current version of Retrospect 6 for Mac OS X, it comes
with a copy of Retrospect 5.1, the last version to run on Mac OS 9,
so finding the older version isn't too difficult.

David Shepherdson

tbutler (apparently) - Sep 28, 2005 11:58 am (#6 Total: 8)  

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Re: Small/old cross-platform backup solution

On 9/23/05 at 7:45 PM, edwardpaleo.org (Edward Reid) wrote:

> At 04:10 PM 09/23/2005 -0700, Nik wrote:
>
> >In order to host Retrospect in this set up, I THINK you need at
> >least OS X (some version) or Windows 2000 or XP on your backup
> >server. It doesn't matter too much which you use, AFAIK. Someone on
> >this list will certainly correct me if that's not the case.
>
> To run the current versions of Retrospect, this is true. Running
> Retrospect with OS9 or W98 would require finding an older version. I
> think that even an older version could back up remote OSX and XP
> systems, but I'm not sure. Certainly this complication is yet another
> reason not to try to use an old computer as a backup server.

Unfortunately, running current versions of Retrospect under Tiger has
proven extremely problematic for me, and apparently for a number of
other people who have posted attempted workarounds on the forums and
various websites that mostly involve disabling Spotlight. Dantz support
themselves were not able to help. I have to admit being very
disappointed; Retrospect's been getting somewhat flakier over the last
couple of OS and Retrospect revisions, but this is the first time it's
become actually unusuable. At the moment, we're getting by with
SuperDuper; it's not a true incremental backup system, but at least it
*works*.


Travis Butler
tbutlermac.com

...Cats are the proof of a higher purpose to the universe.

j-beda (apparently) - Oct 11, 2005 7:18 am (#7 Total: 8)  

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Re: Small/old cross-platform backup solution

At 11:58 AM -0700 9/28/05, Travis Butler wrote:
>Unfortunately, running current versions of Retrospect under Tiger has
>proven extremely problematic for me, and apparently for a number of
>other people who have posted attempted workarounds on the forums and
>various websites that mostly involve disabling Spotlight.

        It looks like Dantz/EMC2 has just released Retrospect 6.1 for Mac
which seems to address at least some of the 10.4 issues. I've installed it
but have not tested to any great extent.

<http://www.dantz.com/>
<http://www.dantz.com/en/about/news/detail.dtml?id=263>
EMC DANTZ RETROSPECT EXTENDS SUPPORT FOR MAC OS X TIGER

HOPKINTON, Mass.-Oct 03, 2005-
EMC Corporation, the world leader in information management and storage,
today announced the availability of EMC Dantz Retrospect 6.1 for Macintosh
that delivers enhanced support for the Mac OS X version 10.4 "Tiger"
operating system....

Retrospect 6.0 customers can download, at no charge, an electronic update
to Retrospect 6.1 for Macintosh...

<http://db.tidbits.com/getbits.acgi?tbart=08268>

--
* Johann Beda - contact link: <http://public.xdi.org/=j-beda> *
* Johann's MostlyMac Computer Consulting - <http://mmcc.beda.ca/> *

jwblist (apparently) - Oct 11, 2005 6:57 pm (#8 Total: 8)  

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Re: Small/old cross-platform backup solution



On Oct 11, 2005, at 7:18 AM, Johann Beda wrote:
> It looks like Dantz/EMC2 has just released Retrospect 6.1 for Mac
> which seems to address at least some of the 10.4 issues. I've
> installed it
> but have not tested to any great extent.

There is a newer release of Retrospect 6.1 expected "this week" to
repair some problems that 6.1 has (particularly with backing up
client machines). I'm waiting.

Once the new version arrives here, I'll again try a client backup.
With 6.0, I run into the Piton protocol failure with media changes
(6.1 fixes an assertion failure which can also be seen*). I've
finessed that by backing up the bootable clone I have on an external
firewire disk, plugging that into the backup machine. (Backup host
is Dual 533 G4, client is Mini. Both are running 10.4.2.)

*One hopes they fixed the assertion failure by fixing the underlying
problem, not by simply removing the assertion. Both fix methods
"work" in the sense that the user no longer sees assertion failures.

   --John





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