iBook and peripheral questions

At 07:49 AM 08/18/2005 -0700, Google Kreme wrote:
>Well, $183 is 15% the cost, assuming $1200 for the laptop. So the
>question is, "Are more than 15% of iBooks turned in for repair in the
>first 3 years?"

That's one question. But another important question is, can you afford $183
and can you afford $500 (or whatever the cost of a repair is). A lot of
people can afford $200 with the purchase of the laptop who would be placed
in dire straits to pay for a $500 repair a year and a half later. An
extended warranty is not just a gamble where you are wagering whether you
will make or lose money by purchasing the warranty; it's also insurance and
should be evaluated as such.

Of course, if you can afford the risk, then the problem indeed reduces to
just the mathematical expectation of return on investment.

(My personal experience with an HP laptop: the switch under the left half
of the space bar recently broke while it was under extended warranty. Minor
problem but too annoying to live with. That paid for the extended warranty.)

Edward
Art Works by Melynda Reid: http://paleo.org

On 8/18/05 7:49 AM, "Google Kreme" wrote:
>> I have to disagree. The relevant price is not the original cost of the
>> machine, but the cost of the repair, unless you plan on simply replacing the
>> unit if it breaks. The $183 is less than the cost of almost any repair, and
>> with a laptop I'd say the odds are good you'll need a repair at some point
>> during the three years of coverage;
>>
> Well, $183 is 15% the cost, assuming $1200 for the laptop. So the question
> is, "Are more than 15% of iBooks turned in for repair in the first 3 years?"
>
> I'd wager the answer to that is "No"

The real questions are: "What's the percentage of iBooks that require repair
in the second or third years?" and "What's the average cost of such
repairs?" You multiply the two to get the expected value of repair costs.
It's really the expected value of a repair you should be looking at, not the
chances of a repair.

On top of that, you have to take into account your own risk aversion and
ability to pay. Laptop repairs can cost anywhere from a few dollars to well
over $1000. If you're willing to risk that either you won't need a repair
or, if you do, it won't be expensive -- and if you can afford to pay that
$1000 repair if you should be unlucky -- then AppleCare is a bad idea. But
if you want the peace of mind that any repair due to a defect, no matter how
expensive, will be covered for three years, AppleCare is a good deal.

On 19/08/2005, at 2:49 AM, Tony Meyer wrote:
> I don't really understand why Apple doesn't provide a demo of iWork
> (ideally
> included, but downloadable would be fine). I'm certainly not going to
> consider buying iWork without having used it.

        There is an iWork demo available, we have a copy here and a friend of
mine also has a copy (think she was given it from Magnum Mac). I know
our copy came from an apple course that someone went on.


[And Tonya got one with her new G5. -Adam]


-------------------------------------
Jason Campbell
Technician
Psychology Department
University of Otago

Ph (03) 479 7668

In article <1D756B46-4705-487E-8A6E-46BF2B833DB6gmail.com>,
 Google Kreme <gkremegmail.com> wrote:

> Well, $183 is 15% the cost, assuming $1200 for the laptop. So the
> question is, "Are more than 15% of iBooks turned in for repair in the
> first 3 years?"
>
> I'd wager the answer to that is "No"

I think that's a pretty safe wager to make. Apple's not going to price
AppleCare so that it's losing money on average. In fact, if it's like
extended warranties traditionally have been, Apple makes a good profit
on AppleCare.

The problem with comparing the expected cost of repairs to the price of
AppleCare is that the analysis really only applies to Apple or large
buyers where the costs average out over a large sample. To an individual
who can't easily fork up the money to repair or to replace a failed
laptop or who is just plainly risk-averse, AppleCare might be worth it
even if the probabilities say it isn't on average.

I also would seriously reconsider the choice of the 14" over the 12. You're not getting a larger screen, really, just larger pixels, and I find that the 12" is MUCH easier to sit around with on the couch, on a lounge chair, on the bed, etc. It's also very handy for carrying around. The 14" feels considerably more bulky. And since the screen resolution is the same and the keyboard is just as small, I didn't see a real advantage.

I'd disagree. The 14" iBook has the same resolution as my 14" Wallstreet, and I love the display on the Wallstreet. Since they've had 7 years to improve it, I'm assuming the display on the new 14" iBook will be at least as good, if not better. I'm using my dad's 12" iBook right now, and I'd much rather be looking at the Wallstreet display.

--Steve--

You do NOT get extended software support beyond 90 days of ANY software product from Apple. Also, that 90 days will not cover anything beyond initial installation and start up. After that, you are on your own. Also, you need to factor in the incompetence of AppleCare personnel who know nothing about the Mac!! I had one tell me to put my iTunes into the "Recycle Bin"!!

Anyse

At 9:32 -0700 2005-08-19, 1idontcare (Anyse) wrote:
>You do NOT get extended software support beyond 90 days of ANY
>software product from Apple.

The web site for the Apple Store disagrees with you:
"The AppleCare Protection Plan provides support for Apple hardware,
the Mac OS, and Apple consumer applications, including iLife, iWork,
Jam Packs, iChat AV, Mail, Safari, iCal, iSync, AppleWorks, and
QuickTime."

>The problem with comparing the expected cost of repairs to the price of
>AppleCare is that the analysis really only applies to Apple or large
>buyers where the costs average out over a large sample. To an individual
>who can't easily fork up the money to repair or to replace a failed
>laptop or who is just plainly risk-averse, AppleCare might be worth it
>even if the probabilities say it isn't on average.

To put it another way: AppleCare is insurance, folks. (and tech
support, but that's a different part of it)

Insurance is profitable to the insurance industry. That doesn't mean
that you shouldn't get it.

You don't buy insurance hoping that you'll need it. You buy insurance
and hope that you won't ever need it it. The money that insurance
might reimburse does not cover the hassle and inconvenience, so even
with insurance, you don't want to use it.*

As someone (Dan Frakes?) already pointed out, it's about risk
tolerance. Would you rather pay $200 to know that you won't have to
pay $500 or more, possible multiple times. Or would you rather take
the chance?

Furthermore, if you want it to last 4 or 5 years (an eternity for a
laptop), AppleCare can help you there to. Before it runs out, near
the end of year 3, send it in for a tune-up. Or stop by an GenuisBar
to have them look at. The little annoyances that developed over the
years might be worthy of getting major parts replaced. That's nothing
but a good thing.

*************************************

I don't think that an overall AppleCare use % is a good guideline for
the likelihood of your ever needing to use it.

Apple makes money on it, but not that much. So, do you think that you
are more likely or less likely than average to use it?
- Are you just looking for a smaller desktop that can be moved
easily, but rarely will be.
- Are you looking just to use it on the couch?
- Are you going to be take it everywhere?
- How carefully will you pack and carry it?
- Is it likely to be jostled while you are carrying it? (I ride the
subway to and from work, and have to walk to and from the subway
stations. I used to drive to work. My laptops get a lot more wear and
tear.)
- How much are you going to use it? (I use mine ALL THE FRIGGIN' (3
chilli peppers for that word. wow.) TIME. I use it before I leave
home, all that at work, and for hours at home. I open and shut the
lid 10+ times a day. It gets a workout.)
- Etc.
- Etc.

If you know that you are going to be a more gentle laptop user, it is
likely not worth it. If you are going to be like me, you'd be crazy
not to get it.

Here's my latest: I just got my 15" AluBook back for the second
screen replacement under AppleCare since I got it in 2003. Both for
"white spots" (it's nice getting a new screen every year).

The more you beat on a laptop, the more design defects will appears.
Bad i/o ports, power issues, hinges (got a TiBook for that one),
latch issues (this one this time, which got my powerbook's dinged
bottom replaced), in addition to screens and everything else. And
those are just the ones that I've had addressed with MY various
powerbooks over the years (its amazing they still are willing to
insure me, the fools).

If you are new to laptop use, of course it is harder to forecast.

***********************************

* Of course, there are times when the the policy is worth more than
the whatever, but that's relatively rare.


--
=alex hoffman

--On August 19, 2005 9:12:55 AM -0700 Jason Campbell
<jasonpsy.otago.ac.nz> wrote:

> There is an iWork demo available, we have a copy here and a friend of
> mine also has a copy (think she was given it from Magnum Mac). I know
> our copy came from an apple course that someone went on.
>
>
> [And Tonya got one with her new G5. -Adam]

Pretty sure I got one with my mini, although I can't put my hands on it at
the moment (I did however find an Mac System 7.6 CD on my coffee table,
that should tell you something about the condition of my house.)

Kevin

[Jason Campbell]
> There is an iWork demo available, we have a copy here
> and a friend of mine also has a copy (think she was given
> it from Magnum Mac). I know our copy came from an apple
> course that someone went on.
>
> [And Tonya got one with her new G5. -Adam]

Does anyone have any more details about this? (Jason would be great, since
he's in NZ). Googling, it looks like these are given to people rather than
generally available (I wonder why?). If anyone knows of a (legitimate) way
of getting hold of one, that would be very interesting...

=Tony.Meyer

I would NEVER buy an Apple laptop without also purchasing AppleCare!
Personally, my AppleCare investment has returned more than I paid for
it. I have had to replace the hard drive, DVD-ROM drive and Airport
card AFTER the one year complementary warranty. Altogether, these
would have cost me well over $500 and I still have a year and a half
left.

Laptops are definitely prone to more destruction than a desktop. I
also would recommend the 12" over the 14". My 12" has never
disappointed me.

Anyse

>> Yes, it's more than 10% the price of the machine. I would buy it on
>> a powerbook, but not on an iBook, the cost is simply to high for the
>> value of the protection (note, the AppleCare is the same cost on a
>> $1000 iBook as a $2700 powerbook).

I disagree. Unless you're a Mac Wizard, the care and support is
excellent to have...I will never again buy a Mac without it.

One semi-serious repair or issue---and It's paid for. And they take
all your small questions as well. Sometimes it's something obvious
that I just don't notice--on a setting or whatever.

It's a matter of priorities, I guess.

Up to you--everyone has to make his/her own choice. :)


[OK, I think we're hitting the end of new information about AppleCare, so let's wind down this branch. -Adam]


Paula

On 8/20/05 9:06 PM, "Tony Meyer" wrote:

> There is an iWork demo available, we have a copy here > and a friend of mine also has a copy (think she was given > it from Magnum Mac). I know our copy came from an apple > course that someone went on. > > [And Tonya got one with her new G5. -Adam]

Does anyone have any more details about this? (Jason would be great, since he's in NZ). Googling, it looks like these are given to people rather than generally available (I wonder why?). If anyone knows of a (legitimate) way of getting hold of one, that would be very interesting...

The iWork demo comes with new Macs and with retail boxes of Tiger and iLife '05. I've also been told that some Apple Retail stores (and possibly some third-party resellers) have them on hand, although my impression is that you have to ask for them. (I personally haven't seen them out on the floor.)

[Lots of other people have posted saying it came with their Mac or with Tiger, so I'm posting just Dan's response as the final word so we can let this thread end -Adam.]

-- Dan Frakes Senior Writer Macworld Reviews Editor Playlist

Hi, thread originator here. SteveGaul asked about the free iPod mini deal. Yeah, that verbiage threw me too. In fact, that's why I was originally going to get a 14-incher: After you factored in iPod deal and the HD upgrade I would need with the 12-incher, the price was about a wash.

Upon calling Apple, though, the salesman set me straight. He said that there is indeed a 12-inch iBook with CD-ROM ONLY available to educational customers. Otherwise, the 12-incher comes with a combo drive, and does qualify for the free iPod mini deal (or, more accurately, the $179 iPod rebate deal).

Now for a further complication, one which I wonder if TidBits readers might be able to advise me on. The three items I ordered (iBook, iPod Mini, Airport Express Base Station) were mailed separately. The iBook has not yet arrived. FedEx delivered the Base Station Friday. I was at work, and my wife was home. It is a little confusing as to which house is mine, so the courier called me at work. I told him which one was mine, and he delivered it to my wife. No problem.

Then I went on line to check the status of the iPod Mini. To my surprise, it said the iPod had been delivered the day before. "Left on doorstep; no signature required" or something to that effect. Uh, no. My wife was home all day that day, and no one ever stopped by.

I sent a message to FedEx, and they are looking into it. (First I tried calling their "customer service" number, but gave up after *45 MINUTES* on hold). I was just wondering, though, if any of you have ever had a similar experience, and what your recourse was.

- Alaska Jack

Quoting Alexander Hoffman <ahoffmanAleDev.com>:

> Furthermore, if you want it to last 4 or 5 years (an eternity for a
> laptop), AppleCare can help you there too. Before it runs out, near
> the end of year 3, send it in for a tune-up. Or stop by an GenuisBar
> to have them look at. The little annoyances that developed over the
> years might be worthy of getting major parts replaced. That's nothing
> but a good thing.

This is a huge deal, put your expiration date in your calendar with a reminder
to go off a month ahead. Any problems you have at that point take to
the Apple Store or call in.

Towards the end of the AppleCare I was having an occasional lockup but did
nothing about it, I was pretty sure it was an overheating issue. Thinking I had
a few more weeks than I really did on AppleCare I slacked off a bit. When it
finally locked up for good and I took it in -- I was 3 weeks past my AppleCare
expiration and the problem had started the week before expiration. If I
reported the problem, even if no solution were found at that time, it would've
been covered.

Even so I still got 2 or 3 repairs off my AppleCare on my Titanium PB4
(including a case replacment for that peeling that occurred on the first couple
of revisions, and a free upgrade to a CD-ROM burner when I sent it in
for a hard drive issue, not to mention the hard drive replaced.)

Kevin

Regarding the cost of notebook repair without warrantee or Applecare,
I've repaired an old blue clamshell iBook and a G4 Titanium 15". Both
were done flat rate through an Apple Store although mailed to Apple.
They fix whatever needs fixing for one price. The TiBook, most
recent, was flat rate repair $220 and labor $100. The iBook was
several years ago.

Is this unusual? I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned earlier.

-Charles

On 8/23/05 8:03 PM, "Charles Turner" <cpturnerturnlink.net> wrote:

> Regarding the cost of notebook repair without warrantee or Applecare,
> I've repaired an old blue clamshell iBook and a G4 Titanium 15". Both
> were done flat rate through an Apple Store although mailed to Apple.
> They fix whatever needs fixing for one price. The TiBook, most
> recent, was flat rate repair $220 and labor $100. The iBook was
> several years ago.

I haven't heard of this. I could see that working for case damage or a drive
but that doesn't sound like enough money to cover LCD or motherboard
replacement.

In article <p06210205bf31216142fe[192.168.2.101]>,
 Charles Turner <cpturnerturnlink.net> wrote:

> The TiBook, most
> recent, was flat rate repair $220 and labor $100. The iBook was
> several years ago.

Apple has several tiers of servicing for laptops. The company charges a
flat rate for each tier and will repair any flaws covered at that level.
Of course, if you need a logic board replaced, that tier will be much
more expensive than if you just need a hard drive or keyboard replaced.

At 4:33 AM -0700 2005/08/23, anjtc wrote:

>Then I went on line to check the status of the iPod Mini. To my
>surprise, it said the iPod had been delivered the day before. "Left
>on doorstep; no signature required" or something to that effect. Uh,
>no. My wife was home all day that day, and no one ever stopped by.
>
>I sent a message to FedEx, and they are looking into it. (First I
>tried calling their "customer service" number, but gave up after *45
>MINUTES* on hold). I was just wondering, though, if any of you have
>ever had a similar experience, and what your recourse was.

        I'd expect FedEx & Apple to deal with that, by getting it
back from the neighbor if possible, or by just giving you a new one.
You certainly didn't deliver it to the wrong person, or erroneously
sign for a mis-delivered package.

        FedEx accidentally delivered my 15" PBG4 to the wrong address
(apparently there's a Mac dealer who works out of his house a block
away, and that day he got something like 8 boxes from Apple instead
of the correct 7). FedEx found his signature, and Google found his
phone number; I picked it up that night, and the FedEx phone person
was very happy they didn't have to do anything further.


                                                Chris Pepper
PS-You could try calling the Apple Store to deal with this, but
should probably just find a speakerphone or headset and call FedEx
when you have the time; I suspect the best Apple could do would be to
call FedEx, until they confirm the problem.
--
Chris Pepper: <http://www.reppep.com/~pepper/>
Rockefeller University: <http://www.rockefeller.edu/>
** I am out of the office August 22-26, returning the 29th.
Please call the Help Desk at x8940 if you need assistance.

On Aug 24, 2005, at 12:17 PM, Conrad Hirano wrote:

>> The TiBook, most
>> recent, was flat rate repair $220 and labor $100. The iBook was
>> several years ago.
>>
>
> Apple has several tiers of servicing for laptops. The company
> charges a
> flat rate for each tier and will repair any flaws covered at that
> level.
> Of course, if you need a logic board replaced, that tier will be much
> more expensive than if you just need a hard drive or keyboard
> replaced.

It's a bit more subtle than this…

Apple puts paid repairs for laptops in two categories:
1) Out-of-warranty
2) Damaged

For the first catagory, you pay a flat-rate fee for the repair. As
far as I've been able to determine, this applies to any repair Apple
would've covered in-warranty. Last I heard, it was about $330 or so,
for _any_ applicable repair.

For the second category, Apple has a tiered repair system. For each
tier, everything up to that tier is covered. I think it goes like this:
First tier: Unsure
Second tier: Case bits.
Third tier: Most "computer" parts…Logic board, optical drive, HDD, etc.
Fourth tier: LCD.

If, for instance, your PowerBook G4 gets dropped and has a broken
ethernet port (on the logic board), a dented case, and a broken
screen then everything would be repaired at the fourth tier, with
everything being fixed.

I've got no idea how much those cost, 'cause they've varied when I
talk to different people.

Hope this sheds some light on it.

Cap'n Hector