Expanding the View with a Dell LCD Display

-----Original Message-----
From: TidBITS Talk [mailto:tidbits-talktidbits.com] On Behalf Of steve133
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 7:33 AM
To: tidbits-talktidbits.com
Subject: Re: Expanding the View with a Dell LCD Display

<http://www.apple.com/powerbook/specs.html>
says 12" PowerBooks with 5200 support 2048 x 1536
on the external display, so there's a good chance
it also supports 1680x1050 (with mirroring turned
off).>

I have an 2003 iBook (32 VRAM) with a Radeon 7500 off which I run a first or second generation Apple Studio Display 15" TFT. According to Apple it has multiple resolutions, with a max of 1024x768 which is also the max resolution of the iBook-- which can only mirror by VGA, no digital. The picture is fine, if not spectacular, and the whole screen is filled.
   Am I getting the recent messages correct: i.e., that  

1) a monitor such as the Dell 19 or 20 being discussed will not show a full screen at the iBook's highest res; and,  

 2) that even if it does display full screen that the display might be a lot less crisp than my present monitor? Any way to test this prior to purchase?  

At 12:43 PM -0700 8/9/05, hcwerdna wrote:
>I just had some quick comments regarding the 2005FPW. $525 is far too
>much to pay for that LCD. It's VERY frequently available for $459 or
>less w/coupon codes (mentioned in the article). I would just wait for
>a deal to come around.

There was a coupon posted today on dealmac.com that brings the price
down to $443 (plus tax, free shipping). That was enough to motivate
me to pull the trigger on my order. I pasted the email notification
below. Act quick. It states that it's only good for the first 1,000
coupon redemptions.

-Andrew

---

The following HOT DEAL was just posted on http://dealmac.com !

Dell UltraSharp 2005FPW 20.1" widescreen LCD display w/DVI for $443 shipped
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matched on subscription to keyword "dell UltraSharp 2005FPW"

for $524.25. Coupon codes "3BSKPR5B1X5RVQ" and
"7WBQ7X?QCSZ33G" chop the price to $443.28. With free
shipping, that's the lowest price we've seen since this
display hit $359 for one day in July. The 2005FPW sports a
native resolution of 1680x1050, 600:1 contrast ratio, 300
cd/m2 brightness, an integrated 4-port USB 2.0 hub, and
S-Video, composite video, DVI, and VGA inputs. Deal ends
August 25 at 7 am ET or after 1,000 coupon redemptions.

Click here for updates or to snap up this deal now:
http://dealmac.com/deals/94168.html?ref=alert

I've had a Dell 2405FPW for a week now, and here's a hands-on
impression. (For a technical review, see the link provided in an
earlier post to this topic.)

The monitor itself is well constructed in Dell's normal black
plastic. The stand is probably the only one included with a monitor
that I've been impressed with. It provides a 45 degree pan to either
side and roughly 10 degrees of up and down tilt. The stand telescopes
through 6" of height adjustment which must include some type of
counter balance since it slides up much easier than it should
considering the monitor's weight.

The monitor also rotates 90 degrees clockwise on the stand, and
Dell's instructions even utilize this feature in the quick setup
instructions to facilitate connecting cords (all the ports point
downwards). On Tiger, the monitor was automatically identified as a
Dell 2405FPW, and the rotation option appeared in the Monitors
Preference Pane.

Changing the rotation took over 10 seconds on a 15" powerbook (1.67
Mhz). My guess is that the screen buffer stored on the graphics card
was being swapped into main memory, the buffer reconfigured, and then
the data moved back to the graphics card. All conjecture, but given
the architectural changes with video memory usage in Tiger,
specifically that the window server is OpenGL, it seems plausible.
See the ars technica review for details:

<http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/macosx-10.4.ars/13>

As much as I like the ability to rotate the display, I doubt I'll
ever use it. The 2405 is tall enough to display a page of text, so
rotating to get a full page view would probably not be necessary. For
most of my work, side by side view of two documents is much more
useful. 5+ years of dual displays also has me used to spreading out
horizontally.

The display's ability to switch between 5 input sources (VGA, DVI-D,
Composite, S-Video, Component) and the expense of DVI KVM switches is
also going to cause me to rearrange the connections to computers.
Previously an Apple 17" LDC was connected via an ADC to a G4
Quicksilver, and a 19" Sony CRT was connected to a VGA USB KVM
switch. From there it went to a second video card in the G4 tower, to
a G3 minitower, and to a spare cable for the powerbook.

The G4 desktop is now connected to the VGA port on the 2405 and the
DVI connection is left available for the powerbook. The USB
connection from the monitor (which also connects the built-in media
card reader) is connected to the G4 since the laptop always has a SD
PCMCIA card in it. The USB KVM switch is used only for the keyboard
and mouse now. Switching computers now involves switching the source
on the monitor and the KVM. One more button push, but reasonable.

Steve Cochran

I had occasion to look up an invoice for an Apple order I made in 2000, and
as I glanced through it, there was my pride and joy of the day: an original
Apple Cinema Display (the one that came with a DVI connector, before they
even thought up the proprietary Apple Display Connector). FOUR THOUSAND
DOLLARS!

Woof! It brought this thread to mind, as we toss coupon victories back and
forth to save $50 or $100. But what it really brought home to me is the
actual, honest-to-goodness *order of magnitude* drop in prices we've seen in
just 5 years. I know that I won't even consider a CRT any longer for any use
at all, and no longer does my wallet suffer the outrageous damage of just a
few years ago as a consequence.

In fact, I recently got a coupon of my own that convinced me it was time to
build the ultimate panorama display - three Dell 20" monitors, each giving
me a better resolution at 1600x1200 than my trusty Cinema Display can by its
lonesome - $1300 including an extra video card to drive them all using DVI.

Our kids aren't going to know how good they've got it! :-)

  ..Chris..

I've finally caught up to this thread and I am wondering about some
basics:

First, is it *only* possible to get these monitors through Dell online?
That's how it seemed from my initial search. I live in NYC (lots of
stores) and I kinda hoped to look at them "in person" before I plopped
one of them on my already crowded desk.

Second, do they come with the appropriate connecting cable? I don't
know zilch about PCs and very little about the video cables and whether
they're the same for both platforms. I would use it a second monitor on
my dual G4 (FW800 model), running 10.3.9.

Thanks a lot.

On Aug 31, 2005, at 9:22 AM, r2ggentlysloping.com wrote:

> First, is it *only* possible to get these monitors through Dell
> online?
> That's how it seemed from my initial search. I live in NYC (lots of
> stores) and I kinda hoped to look at them "in person" before I plopped
> one of them on my already crowded desk.

AFAIK, Dell closed all their retail stores, but if they did, NYC
might be the place.

> Second, do they come with the appropriate connecting cable? I don't
> know zilch about PCs and very little about the video cables and
> whether
> they're the same for both platforms. I would use it a second
> monitor on
> my dual G4 (FW800 model), running 10.3.9.

The 2405FPW came with a DVI-D, D-Sub (VGA), USB A to B, and power
cables. Also included was a CD with drivers for windows mostly for
the card reader from what I can tell.

Steve

I'm not a techie so after reading all the emails regarding this thread, I'm still a bit in the mist. The image on my Apple 21" Studio Display got all scrunched up from both left and right sides to the center. A friend told me it happened to his TV and the tubes are going. I'd like to confirm it before I head out to purchase a new monitor. It's a hassle just to haul this monitor to the dumpster. I have my eyes on the Dell 2005FPW but not sure if it works with my G4 Quicksilver 733 Mhz (2001 model). Can someone help?

cordeon

Paul

Ok... I've been following this conversation so far and now I'm at an interesting dilemma... to go with Apple's implementation of the 23" or Dell's implementation of the 23"....

thus a few questions:

*what is the practical meaning behind "Contrast ratio"? Dell quotes 1000:1, but a review says that it is really something like "600:1" whereas Apple claims for theirs a ratio of "400:1"

<http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1764461,00.asp>
<http://www.apple.com/displays/specs.html>

So what does 'contrast ratio' mean in practical terms?

*Brightness would appear to be the same issue... Apple cites 270 candela vs Dell's 500 candela. I for one wouldn't be running the screen at maximum brightness so that makes me wonder about the practicality of such brightness.


Bottom line for me is that as a photographer I value colour fidelity and accuracy over everything else. Presently I'm using an Apple 17" LCD (plastic framed one) and having used a high contrast monitor that was crazy bright and had awful colour fidelity (*).

<http://www.cmv.com.tw/tw/product.asp?pid={466819FB-CDD0-49B5-81B0-F9AFD99D9CEB}>

Contrast ratios mean nothing to me if they mean that I will have clipped highlights and shadows. Since both displays from Apple and Dell use the same LCD panels, the response time from gray-gray or black-white are the same (12ms and 16ms as I recall) so the differences are in the light source, the inputs and the coatings on the panel.

Thoughts?

Dieder

Hi Dieder,

You have asked about the colour fidelity of the Apple Cinema Displays.

This is a rather dated, but nevertheless careful, examination of the colour gamut of the 23" HD Cinema Display and it might help in your quest for reliable information.

Go to <http://www.gretagmacbeth.com/products_eye-one-photo_documents> and download the document entitled "Eye-One Apple Cinema Display white paper"

HTH

John Wolff

Hamilton, New Zealand

dtpcompwave.co.nz

On 01 Sep 2005, at 09:06, cordeon wrote:
> I'm not a techie so after reading all the emails regarding this
> thread, I'm still a bit in the mist. The image on my Apple 21"
> Studio Display got all scrunched up from both left and right sides
> to the center. A friend told me it happened to his TV and the tubes
> are going. I'd like to confirm it before I head out to purchase a
> new monitor. It's a hassle just to haul this monitor to the
> dumpster. I have my eyes on the Dell 2005FPW but not sure if it
> works with my G4 Quicksilver 733 Mhz (2001 model). Can someone help?

Yes your monitor is dying, yes the Dell will work on any computer
with VGA or DVI.

On 09 Aug 2005, at 23:41 , Google Kreme wrote:
> I have to say, this model has me sorely tempted. I have a credit
> voucher for $75 with Dell, and that would drop this flat panel down
> into the price point I can, if not afford, at least rationalize.
>
> However, I'm looking at is a TV replacement (for the bedroom, where I
> don't want a screen that is 'too' large), with the added bonus of
> perhaps hooking up a laptop, iLamp, or future mini to it in addition.
>
> Are there any caveats I should be aware of when considering this as
> primarily a television? (It would be connected to a TiVo, and I
> assume I would need to purchase some speakers?)

To respond to my own post, now that I have the 2005FPW setup and
working as the replacement TV for the bedroom, yes, there are some
caveats.

First, and most obviously, there is no remote, no remote sensor, and
no way to turn off the LCD short of getting up and turning it off. I
THINK it shut itself off once when it was left idle, but I'm not sure.

Second, as I should have considered, the speakers. Or rather the
lack of. You will need to budget some extra money for good
speakers. I ended up spending about $80 for some Dell 5.1 surround
speakers that integrate pretty well with the LCD. But, of course, no
remote control of the volume level. It's a small thing, but one
anyone considering doing this should be aware of it.

The monitor has an excellent picture of the svideo from my DVD player
or my TiVo, but I was unable to connect both at once, as the S-Video
connection overrides the composite input (I was going to put the DVD
player on composite, now I switch cables). The PiP features is nice,
but the menu system can sometimes make it impossible to get out of
PiP if the VGA source is disconnected. (I ended up bringing my laptop
back and connecting it so I could get back to just TV picture.

The other caveats are Dell. I have to say, I am really happy that I
rarely have to deal with them. As I said, I had a credit voucher
with Dell for $75 because of an order they had screwed up for my Mom
(they shipped her a computer with less RAM than they charged her
for). Despite being told this was a CREDIT voucher, I was unable to
apply it to the purchase of the 2005FPW as the deal-of-the-day (from
dealmac.com) already had a coupon code associated with it. I ended
up splitting the order in two and applying the code to the speakers,
which ended up costing about $7. Still, an unpleasant experience
with the whole order process.

Shipping was fast. Too fast, in fact. I received an email saying
the panel had shipped, and it arrived that same day. I was not home,
so the flat panel sat unattended on my front stoop for somewhere
between 2 and 5 hours. Good thing our cul-de-sac is pretty quite.
Still, had I known it was arriving, I would have been home. The
speakers arrived a few days later.

In the interim I tried to use my iFire to connect my Apple Pro
speakers to the TiVo. This was very odd. It worked pretty well for
some channels, and not at all for others. The sound would "click" on
and off every second or two on, for example, BBC America and A&E, but
only every 15-20 seconds on CNN or ESPN. I'm sure there's some
explanation for this, but I can't even make up something plausible
sounding.

For the record, the iFire works brilliantly with my iPod.

(Has the iFire been discontinued? All I can find is a support page.
Shame if it has, it's a nifty device.)

<http://www.griffintechnology.com/support/ifire/index.php>

--
I've always had a flair for stage directions.

I know this is an old topic however, it is the reason that I
purchased the 2405 when the monitor went on special here in New
Zealand ($NZ 1500) about six weeks ago. The Dell was to work with my
new 15.2 inch 1.67 PB. I have not yet sorted out the LCD settings to
my satisfaction yet. The standard brightness settings provided too
great a contrast with my new PB 1.67 to comfortable move work between
the two screens. The Dell brightness has been reduced as low as it
will go without making the white saturation difference too
noticeable, the Dell going very yellow tinged in comparison to the
PB. I hope to get this sorted soon. Any ideas from knowledgeable
users here welcomed.

Apart from that issue I am enjoying the large size and restful effect
on my poor eyes, I could never go back to a CTR by choice having
experienced the difference of doing a days work on the Dell to the
same or shorter time on my old G4 AGP 400 and its associated 17 inch
CTR. At one stage I had the CTR and Dell LCD side by side with the
same iChat conversation using exactly the same settings and I could
read the LCD with ease in great contrast between the text and
background, while the CTR was a strain and the incoming text from my
daughter was blurry. Pre LCD I would have thought it was great :-),
which just goes to prove yet again the thought expressed here many
times that it is not until a person actually uses the faster: CPU,
modem, graphic card, etc that they understand the raving enthusiasm
of their friends for the new item.

One big show-stopper for me is my reason for this post. The USB and
card reader hub, mentioned by others in the thread.

This was a great bonus, I thought. I have an Brother GL550 label
printer, an Epson C40UX, and an LaserWriter plus external keyboard
and trackball all connected to USB at my office, and I take the PB
home for after hours work email - I receive a lot of this. Therefore
the ability to have one usb connection to the PB and all the others
connected via the monitor saved a lot of unplugging and potentially
saved a lot of wear on the PB.

Unfortunately this USB Hub seems to be causing problems for the PB.
It first caused it to freeze when waking from sleep and Dell Malaysia
immediately on hearing the symptoms advised changing the USB cable.
This seemed to fix the problem however, the PB now has a very strange
error message when you start up using single user mode. I have
repaired permissions, repaired the disk using both the Apple disk
utility and ProSoft Drive Genius and ran "fsck -fy" several times.
but the error remains.

I don't have enough terminal knowledge beyond fsck -fy to even copy
the error list to a text file so I am at a dead end at the wrong time
of year of course.... Murphy. Is there anyone here who is bored
enough on New Years Day to be willing to help me with eradicating the
error? I am hopefull that it is just a matter of deleting some pref
or other from the system. Basicly the computer is not recognizing the
USB Wheel (along with a lot of other things) however it all works
with my trackball. If anyone can tell me how to have the error's
saved to a txt file I will happily email them off list.

In addition, Adam, can I suggest that some of the team do an article
about moving from desktop Mac's to the world of mobile computing. I
sometimes did not appreciate what the TidBits Talkers who use
portable Mac's were on about with some of their issues over the
years, but I do now; sort of. After only eight weeks on a PB I have
begun to realize that moving to a PB is not just a Mac that can be
moved more easily, but is a completely different world. For example,
I have been a mouse enthused bigot since my first 512 in 1984, and
have never understood the people who complained about the lack of
keyboard shortcuts, a track ball was the best. Now, I can't wait to
learn more keyboard shortcuts and every trip away from the keys is
wasted time, and as for that "caps lock"!

I apologies for the verbose post. Any help/advice would be great.

--Neil

I know this is ancient history, but I'd like to ask another question
on this thread, now that I own a 17" dell (1704FPV ) and shopping for
a 20" monitor to pair it with --

The question is, "if money were no object," would people still buy
Dell over Apple? I mean, are the recommendations largely based on
"bang for the buck" or do people think the Dell's are superior in
other ways. I don't have complaints about color and brightness on the
Dell, which I suppose is the important part, and yet... it bugs me
for the following reasons--

(1) It has an excruciatingly slow response on waking from sleep -- I
have to go get coffee or I start thinking that my computer died.

(2) It has its own separate AC power plug and I can't use it to start
the computer the way I did with my old 17" Apple Display.

(3) The USB ports are awkwardly placed a third way up on the left
side and the one time I tried to hook up a piece of equipment that
had worked with the Apple monitor, it wouldn't work here (can't
remember which one it was, maybe a Wacom tablet).

(4) I just really don't like the way it looks as compared to Apple's
equipment.

On the other hand... I think I am getting slightly more accurate
color from the Dell, with less calibration effort as compared to my
17" Apple display (the plastic framed version that needs a $100
adaptor to work with current Mac models...) -- but I'm not 100% sure
about it and of course I have no idea if that's meaningful to an
entire product line.
TIA,
-S

On 19 Jan 2006, at 23:43 , r2ggentlysloping.com wrote:
> I know this is ancient history, but I'd like to ask another question
> on this thread, now that I own a 17" dell (1704FPV ) and shopping for
> a 20" monitor to pair it with --
>
> The question is, "if money were no object," would people still buy
> Dell over Apple? I mean, are the recommendations largely based on
> "bang for the buck" or do people think the Dell's are superior in
> other ways. I don't have complaints about color and brightness on the
> Dell, which I suppose is the important part, and yet... it bugs me
> for the following reasons--

I would buy the Apple ones because the casing itself looks better. I
think the actual LCDs are the same, but Apple's have a Firewire hub
as well and a nice looking frame/stand, yes?

> (1) It has an excruciatingly slow response on waking from sleep -- I
> have to go get coffee or I start thinking that my computer died.

I've never had the monitor sleep, but I am using it as a TV. I DO
have issues with it refusing to display the iBook's screen when i
hook it up via mini-DVI to VGA-VGA (I can't fidn my mini-DVI to DVI
plug :/ )

> (2) It has its own separate AC power plug and I can't use it to start
> the computer the way I did with my old 17" Apple Display.

Yep. Same with my 2005FPW.

> (3) The USB ports are awkwardly placed a third way up on the left
> side and the one time I tried to hook up a piece of equipment that
> had worked with the Apple monitor, it wouldn't work here (can't
> remember which one it was, maybe a Wacom tablet).

I'm not sure where the USB ports are (see above)

> (4) I just really don't like the way it looks as compared to Apple's
> equipment.

Yeah, it's an ugly bit of kit, but the screen itself is loverly.

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 22:43:46 -0800, r2ggentlysloping.com said:
> The question is, "if money were no object," would people still buy
> Dell over Apple?

I recently got a Dell 2405 over an Apple Cinema Display. The Cinema
Display is definitely more elegant. In my case, the built-in card reader
and the additional ports (I can hook it to my mini, TV, gamecube all at
the same time) have real usability benefits. Besides, money always is an
object to an extent. I could get an iPod to go with my 2405 for less
than the cinema display at the time I bought it.

Jonathan

>
>The question is, "if money were no object," would people still buy
>Dell over Apple? I mean, are the recommendations largely based on
>"bang for the buck" or do people think the Dell's are superior in
>other ways. I don't have complaints about color and brightness on the
>Dell,

I have both a 20" Dell at work and a 20" Apple at home. My eyes
prefer the Dell by far. The image is sharper. I heard the Apple has a
matte finish to the glass to minimize glare, it also seems to dull
and fuzz the image.

>(1) It has an excruciatingly slow response on waking from sleep -- I
>have to go get coffee or I start thinking that my computer died.

I have not experienced this.

>(2) It has its own separate AC power plug and I can't use it to start
>the computer the way I did with my old 17" Apple Display.

How often do you shut down your system? I don't find it that
difficult to reach under the desk and press the button on the front
of the G5, when I need to boot.

>(3) The USB ports are awkwardly placed a third way up on the left
>side and the one time I tried to hook up a piece of equipment that
>had worked with the Apple monitor, it wouldn't work here (can't
>remember which one it was, maybe a Wacom tablet).
>
>(4) I just really don't like the way it looks as compared to Apple's
>equipment.

True.



--
Nick Pappas
Lizzy's Ice Cream LLC
http://www.lizzysicecream.com

> The question is, "if money were no object," would people still buy
> Dell over Apple? I mean, are the recommendations largely based on
> "bang for the buck" or do people think the Dell's are superior in
> other ways. I don't have complaints about color and brightness on the
> Dell, which I suppose is the important part, and yet... it bugs me
> for the following reasons--

I would still buy an equivalent Dell monitor if money were no object.
With an unlimited supply of $, I would buy more and more Dells to use
as 2nd, 3rd monitors, and then start giving them away to friends and
family. And then horde some cash to update the screens when newer
better models are released, or to replace those that have broken down.

But this is only because I don't feel Apple's offerings justify their
higher cost. To me, the advantages of Dell's offerings are huge:

I tend to use more USB peripherals compared to FW, especially since FW
products are usually daisy chainable. And the FW ports on my PowerBook
are within easy reach. I don't really think there is an ideal place
for the USB ports on a monitor: there will always be satisfied users
and detractors no matter where they are.

I like the neatness of the built in power supply.

The rotational ability is nice, but left unused.

The multiple inputs make the panel more versatile. I just removed my
TV from the house (because TV is evil). But anyone who wants to use
the GameCube can still connect it to my Dell 2405 & computer speakers.
Nice. I can do a similar thing if desired, with an ancient VCR or
modern digital set top box to convert the screen to a television,
complete with remote control.

Aside from the cost, I think it comes down to 3 main differences:
1. whether one wants a FW hub of sorts on their desk (FW hubs
themselves can be quite pricey).

2. the different looks.

3. Whether you are more comfortable with Dell or Apple. Someone who
has access to a good Apple Store or reseller may feel more comfy with
Apple. Personally, I felt comfier with Dell as a company and with the
Dell representatives when I dealt with them over the phone. For one
thing, I live in Australia, and not close to a trustworthy Apple
reseller. Another thing is that Dell allowed me to haggle on the
telephone. Thirdly, perhaps erroneously, I feel that since Dell sells
more monitors and would be better placed to give me better support if
things went pear shaped.

I do pay a premium for Apple computers and software because they are
better than the competition. Apple can also differentiate their
pricier keyboard and mice from the competition. But I don't think they
add much value to monitors, just like they stopped doing so with
scanners and printers many years ago. I suspect they continue selling
monitors because there is a demand among Mac users for matching
screens, and because they need to include an LCD in their notebooks
and the iMac anyway.

My comment is I have two 19" Planars with my dual G5, and the screen real estate is wonderful. InDesign open in one with all of Adobe's many palettes in the other plus Photoshop and/or MS Word in the other.

The only way to fly.

Jack Hodgs

Google Kreme wrote:
> I would buy the Apple ones because the casing itself looks better. I
> think the actual LCDs are the same, but Apple's have a Firewire hub
> as well and a nice looking frame/stand, yes?

The LCD's aren't the same. The Dell has some nicer specs in a couple of
areas, and it's a tad larger. Apple does have the hub and the nice
looking frame/stand, and it's stand is adjustable, including support for
portrait mode. Personally, if I'm doing firewire, I'd rather buy a nice
Pro hub with the money I'd save, but to each his own. The 2405FPW also
has the flash media interfaces which can be handy.


--Chris