Hell Freezes Over: News at 11

On Aug 9, 2005, at 9:44 AM, Lucas K. Mathis wrote:

> On 6.8.2005, space aliens observed kevinv saying:
>
>> Windows, and the Microsoft apps don't force you to use a right-click
>> any more than the Mac does.
>>
>
> This is most definitely wrong. Windows doesn't even have a menu if you
> don't open a window. How do you change properties of the icons on your
> desktop? Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how you do that
> without right-clicking on the icon.

Windows Explorer, pointed to the desktop. (One route of many:
double-click My Documents, then use the "parent folder" button in the
bar. For keyboard aficionados, Windows Key and E gets you close.)

Select the icon in the Windows Explorer window, then use File menu,
Properties.

>
> I remember installing a WiFi card on my girlfriend's Windows laptop
> once. The manual actually told you to right-click on an icon inside a
> submenu of the Start menu in order to get to the properties panel for
> this icon, where you then had to change some settings.
>

I *think* Windows Explorer can manage this one, too. But the right
click is very much easier, as finding the directory containing the
item whose properties you need to change was non-trivial last time I
tried it.

   --John

On 8/9/05 11:44, "Lucas K. Mathis" <tidbitslkmc.ch> wrote:

> This is most definitely wrong. Windows doesn't even have a menu if you
> don't open a window. How do you change properties of the icons on your
> desktop? Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how you do that
> without right-clicking on the icon.

Start->Control Panel->Display if you mean for general desktop settings. If
you mean for specific icon properties, you have to right - click.

--
John C. Welch Writer/Analyst
Bynkii.com Mac and other opinions
jwelchbynkii.com

On 8/9/05 14:43, "johnbaxterlistsmac.com" <johnbaxterlistsmac.com> wrote:

> Windows Explorer, pointed to the desktop. (One route of many:
> double-click My Documents, then use the "parent folder" button in the
> bar. For keyboard aficionados, Windows Key and E gets you close.)
>
> Select the icon in the Windows Explorer window, then use File menu,
> Properties.

That's right...i was wrong. But I love how the way to avoid the right -
click requires opening a window, at least one level of navigation, and a
menu for which there's no obvious key combo.

I could cmd-I my entire desktop in that much time.

--
John C. Welch Writer/Analyst
Bynkii.com Mac and other opinions
jwelchbynkii.com

If God, destiny, evolution or whatever you believe in had intended us to only use one button mice, we would have had three fingered hands (OK, two fingers and a thumb if you want to be picky). ;-)

Quoting "Lucas K. Mathis" <tidbitslkmc.ch>:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 6.8.2005, space aliens observed kevinv saying:
>> Windows, and the Microsoft apps don't force you to use a right-click
>> any more than the Mac does.
>
> This is most definitely wrong. Windows doesn't even have a menu if you
> don't open a window. How do you change properties of the icons on your
> desktop? Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how you do that
> without right-clicking on the icon.

well if keyboard shortcuts are allowed then hit alt+enter. If keyboard
shortcuts
don't count then: open the My Documents folder, click the folder with
the arrow
up button on it. That will take you to the desktop and show you the icons in
it. Select the Icon you want to change and go to the File menu and select
Properties.

I didn't say Windows was easier than a Mac (it isn't which is why I
have Macs at
home), just that it was possible.

> I remember installing a WiFi card on my girlfriend's Windows laptop
> once. The manual actually told you to right-click on an icon inside a
> submenu of the Start menu in order to get to the properties panel for
> this icon, where you then had to change some settings.

Manuals and online help will frequently tell you this because right-clicks are
frequently fastest way and they don't want to spend time telling you all the
permutations to do the same thing. Third-party manuals are usually the worst,
but I've seen in Office 2003 help too.

But just because the manual tells you one way doesn't mean the OS is incapable
of working one-buttoned.

The manual probably told you to right-click the My Network Places icons and
select Properties. You can get to this same window in XP by going,
Start...Control Panels...Network Connections. All with one button.

And just to drive home the Windows experience for everyone. You still
aren't to
the network card/wireless properties. You still have to select the Wireless
Network Connection option, click File menu and then Properties AGAIN. Then
click the Wireless Networks tab to configure your wireless network
options. There are shortcut dialogs and wizards you can use again. But
they don't make
the experience anymore fun.

> Windows' interface definitely expects its users to know about and use
> the second mouse button.

Yes, Windows' interface definitely takes advantage of the second button -- but
it is no more REQUIRED than it is on the Mac.

BTW, I can drive the Windows XP and Windows 2000 GUI (haven't tried 2003 yet)
without any mouse at all (including things like switching tabs in tabbed
dialogs). That's something that wasn't even feasible on a Mac until the human
interface options got updated in 10.3 (or was it 10.2?) It isn't a pleasant
experience, but if your mouse is in pieces on the floor it can be life saving
to be able to do it.

Kevin

On 8/9/05 at 9:44 AM, dkmillerpobox.com (dkmiller) wrote:

> While I haven't tried a Mighty Mouse, I monitored myself using my
> two-button mouse at work and noticed that I do currently lift my left
> finger even when right-clicking, so it would probably be okay for me.

I do sometimes, but not all the time; at least not enough to reliably
use the Mighty Mouse. To get the right-click reliably, I had to pay
enough attention to consciously lift my index finger clear. Though part
of that may have been my posture; I was standing at one of the
waist-high Apple Store demo tables, not sitting with my arm in its
normal position for mousing.

> And I agree about the Duo trackballs. I've never come to like
> trackpads, but of course as laptops became thinner and thinner, big
> trackballs, and then trackballs of any significant size, became
> infeasible. I liked the ones on the PowerBook 1xx series, and on my
> Logitech two-button trackball, but I always found the Kensington
> Expert/Turbo Mouse ball too big.

I've grown used to the trackpads, but I hated to give up the 1xx
trackball; one of these days, I ought to see if I can find a 1xx again
and remind myself what it was like. I think my sister still had an old
PB 150 hanging around, last I heard...

> That's the thing about input devices -- keyboards, mice, trackballs,
> tablets, etc. -- they're very personal things. I'm glad there's as
> much choice as there is. And I'll certainly consider the Mighty
> Mouse, since I find the Pro Mouse extremely comfortable.

Good luck with it; as you say, it seems to be a very individual issue.
There's a number of reviewers/commenters who seem to love it and have no
trouble, others who encountered similar issues to what I had. I'd say
it's *definitely* a try-before-you-buy item. :)


Travis Butler
tbutlermac.com

...Cats are the proof of a higher purpose to the universe.

Quoting R. Ahteri Forcada-Lowrie:

> It is impossible to get a web page double-clicker to single-click a
> web page link.
>
> They have learned that what works on their computer is the
> double-click. A single-click or "point and touch" doesn't do anything
> on their desktop ("the real world") so why should it on the web. If
> they have gotten far enough to start up IE/Safari, they have learned
> that the single-click is a no go.

Like many I have anecdotal evidence to back this up. My girlfriend always double clicks when she starts websurfing, and only after a while she remembers that she can single-click and switches to that. She also double-clicks on the windows quickstart icons (next to the 'start' button) on her laptop, and when using my ibook, she also double-clicks *on the icons in the dock*. She even double-clicks to move the I-beam in Word - it has sunk in deep.

But I am convinced that we'll see the end of this madness soon! The only desktop app she actively uses is Word. Otherwise, all her computer usage is via web pages - web apps are rapidly becoming usable for non-power user tasks. She hardly ever uses outlook anymore, manages her email through a webinterface instead.

And if - no, when - a web-app comes along that can replace her minor wordprocessing needs, she would *never* have to double-click again. The confusion between single and double would disappear, and I'm sure accidental double-clicking would be history very, very soon.

So as a side-effect of the web-ification of the desktop experience, the web will dictate the UI. Not because it's better, but because it will be good enough. And when this hits mainstream, the desktop UI will be for power users only, and will adapt to match the web-UI better. So we will suffer, too... heck, I'm using plenty of apps myself (still spend lots of time in vi), but I've also fallen for gmail and flickr.

Driek

--

____Driek_Heesakkers______________________________________________________
Senior Projectleider, Universiteitsbibliotheek, Universiteit van Amsterdam
E: driek.heesakkersuva.nl T: +31 20 525 4966 W: www.uba.uva.nl

                              "LOTS of planets have a North!" -- Dr. Who

I can only hope that the advent of a two button "pro" mouse from
Apple is a sign that upcoming Powerbooks will also have two buttons.
As much as I appreciate Sidetrack giving me more than one button, I'd
be even happier if I had two real buttons.

It also strikes me that the virtual left/right button would be far
less of a hassle on a Powerbook than on a normal mouse, since you
usually don't leave your fingers resting on the trackpad's button
while you use it.

--Nik

--On 8/8/2005 1:48 PM -0700 johnbaxterlistsmac.com wrote:

> I don't know whether the original Mac desktop icon single click
> select/double click act was due to careful studies about being
> consistent with selecting something in MacWrite or MacPaint and then
> acting upon the selection, or was because there weren't enough CPU
> cycles available to make mouse-over select and single click act work
> smoothly for desktop icons.

My best guess is that there were few enough CPU cycles (and RAM for
programming) that there was no real "mouse-over" detection. That is, the
cursor movement was built-in to the display routines, and the main OS
didn't actually "know" where the cursor was except when the button was
pressed, unless it went out of its way to query the mouse.

Hence almost anything that detected mouse position did so only when the
button was clicked or clicked and held.

Dave

At 09:53 AM 08/08/2005 -0700, Ahteri Forcada-Lowrie wrote:
>Funny thing, a lot of the computer novices, I know double-click web page
>links. For them the double-click seems to be a lot more intuitive than the
>single-click. Their "real world" analog is the Apple/Windows folder, disk,
>or application that requires a double-click to open.

I should have avoided being cute ("real world") and just said non-computer
world. Outside of computers, tapping something quickly twice is rare as a
signal. (Percussionists do it for the sound, not the signal.) Certainly you
don't double-click the controls on a microwave oven -- and that's arguably
in the computer world anyway.

>They have learned that what works on their computer is the double-click.

That's the point -- they've learned that it "works" ON THE COMPUTER, not by
analogy with the outside world.

Edward

Art Works by Melynda Reid: http://paleo.org

At 10:44 PM 08/09/2005 -0700, John C. Welch wrote:
>That's right...i was wrong. But I love how the way to avoid the right -
>click requires opening a window,

Nope. As Kevin already pointed out in another post, click once to select,
then alt-return. Or click once to select, then application menu key, R (or
click Properties).

In fact, the problem with Windows is TOO MANY ways to accomplish most
tasks. That's confusing.

But the application menu key can substitute for almost all right clicks.
One notable exception is Photoshop Elements 3, and it's such an anomaly
that I plan to submit a bug report for the omission. Been saying that for
too long ...

Edward
Art Works by Melynda Reid: http://paleo.org

On 8/10/05 23:23, "Edward Reid" <edwardpaleo.org> wrote:

>> That's right...i was wrong. But I love how the way to avoid the right -
>> click requires opening a window,
>
> Nope. As Kevin already pointed out in another post, click once to select,
> then alt-return. Or click once to select, then application menu key, R (or
> click Properties).

It's still confusing and unclear, since the key combos involved aren't
clearly labeled.

--
John C. Welch Writer/Analyst
Bynkii.com Mac and other opinions
jwelchbynkii.com

        I was just thinking over some of the "hell freezes over"
events of the last year.

        Microsoft became a large IBM PPC vendor (Xbox 360).
        Apple released a multibutton mouse (Mighty).
        Apple switched to Intel.
        Apple (arguably) beat Dell at its own game, making PC
laptops/desktops (see Dan Frakes' laptop comparisons).
        Apple supports Windows (not in the sense of phone support,
but in the sense of providing assistance via Boot Camp). I got email
from our sales rep about Parallels!
        Sony will soon become the largest Linux vendor (PS3), and
duke it out with MS & Nintendo to be the highest volume PPC vendor.
They will also supersede Apple as the highest-volume UNIX-based
vendor.

        I do not believe that Apple will drop Mac OS X, but a few of
the above seemed as unlikely before they were announced.


                                                Chris
--
Chris Pepper: <http://www.reppep.com/~pepper/>
Rockefeller University: <http://www.rockefeller.edu/>

[ This may be a duplicate. Chris sent it last night, I approved it, but it never came through as email. I asked him to re-send it. -Andrew ]

        I was just thinking over some of the "hell freezes over"
events of the last year.

        Microsoft became a large IBM PPC vendor (Xbox 360).
        Apple released a multibutton mouse (Mighty).
        Apple switched to Intel.
        Apple (arguably) beat Dell at its own game, making PC
laptops/desktops (see Dan Frakes' laptop comparisons).
        Apple supports Windows (not in the sense of phone support,
but in the sense of providing assistance via Boot Camp). I got email
from our sales rep about Parallels!
        Sony will soon become the largest Linux vendor (PS3), and
duke it out with MS & Nintendo to be the highest volume PPC vendor.
In the process, Sony will also surpass Apple to become the
highest-volume vendor of a UNIX-based operating system.

        I do not believe that Apple will drop Mac OS X, but a few of
the above seemed as unlikely before they were announced.


                                                Chris
--
Chris Pepper: <http://www.reppep.com/~pepper/>
Rockefeller University: <http://www.rockefeller.edu/>

On Apr 8, 2006, at 12:40 PM, Chris Pepper wrote:
> I do not believe that Apple will drop Mac OS X, but a few of
> the above seemed as unlikely before they were announced.

What worries me is that software developers might abandon developing
and updating products for Mac.

And no matter what Adobe, Quark or anyone else (esp. PC users) claim,
just a few weeks ago I did some freelance stuff on Windows in which I
tried to dragging & dropping between Photoshop and Quark (which is
flawless on OS X)... THE HORROR, THE HORROR...... "The dark side" is
right.

Mac users have had to to suffer the indignity of having to pay the
same price for a less fully featured version of a software product
(The Macromedia Suite, which comes with Cold Fusion thrown in for
Windows users, Acrobat has more features for Windows users than Mac,
to name just a few). Would casual Mac users of certain applications
abandon purchasing the dumbed down version when they can get more
bang for the buck with a Windows version?

Marilyn

On 4/8/06 at 8:32 PM, mmattynyc.rr.com (Marilyn Matty) wrote:

>On Apr 8, 2006, at 12:40 PM, Chris Pepper wrote:
>>I do not believe that Apple will drop Mac OS X, but a few of the
>>above seemed as unlikely before they were announced.

>What worries me is that software developers might abandon developing
>and updating products for Mac.

Some developers might do this. But I think John Gruber has it right at

<http://daringfireball.net/2006/04/windows_the_new_classic>

On Apr 9, 2006, at 4:45 PM, Bill Rowe wrote:

> On 4/8/06 at 8:32 PM, mmattynyc.rr.com (Marilyn Matty) wrote:
>
>> On Apr 8, 2006, at 12:40 PM, Chris Pepper wrote:
>>> I do not believe that Apple will drop Mac OS X, but a few of the
>>> above seemed as unlikely before they were announced.
>
>> What worries me is that software developers might abandon developing
>> and updating products for Mac.
>
> Some developers might do this. But I think John Gruber has it right at
>
> <http://daringfireball.net/2006/04/windows_the_new_classic>

And speaking as someone who has developed software for Macintosh and
Windows: the *only* reason a software developer has for abandoning
Mac development is money. The Mac software development environment
is as far ahead of the Windows software development environment as
the Mac user experience is ahead of the Windows user experience.

It's not that the languages themselves are inherently more powerful;
it's that Apple pays the same attention to detail and usability when
designing code for programmers to use as it does when designing
computers or programs for non-programmers to use: simple things are
easy, common things are easy, and difficult things are possible.

--
Charlton Wilbur
cwilburchromatico.net

I also agree with John's take on this, that it changes the playing
field by allowing direct comparison of the operating systems on a
given hardware platform. This hasn't been possible for Apple on a
large scale before this. Eventually, every model of Mac will also be
able to run Windows.

But another thought came to my mind when I saw the announcement.
Resale value of Macs is already so much better than PCs, but now a
Mactel system has potentially more places to penetrate the market
than the older hardware. It won't matter much to the Mac user, but to
a switcher, it's nice to know that the hardware is now potentially in
demand by a lot more eBay viewers than would otherwise have shown
interest. As John said, now Macs aren't just 'different', they are
'special'.

Jeffrey

> And speaking as someone who has developed software for Macintosh and
> Windows: the *only* reason a software developer has for abandoning
> Mac development is money. ....

Not to be crass, but it's money that pays the bills, turns on the
lights, buys food, etc... It's a very powerful reason.

As was quoted in a movie at one time,

"It's the money we make that allows us to do the good we do."

[ "Right now it's only a notion, but I think I can get money to make it into a concept ... and later turn it into an idea. " Party Guest, _Annie Hall_ by Woody Allen -Andrew ]

On Apr 11, 2006, at 1:41 AM, David Ross wrote:

>> And speaking as someone who has developed software for Macintosh and
>> Windows: the *only* reason a software developer has for abandoning
>> Mac development is money. ....
>
> Not to be crass, but it's money that pays the bills, turns on the
> lights, buys food, etc... It's a very powerful reason.

Right, which is why so many people are doing it. But as the Mac
market share increases, that will be less and less of a reason.
There are already business models where Mac development runs circles
around Windows development: OmniGroup and Delicious Monster, for
instance, couldn't really exist in a Windows-only world because of
the difference in development environments and cultures between the
two platforms.

Charlton




--
Charlton Wilbur
cwilburchromatico.net