AirTunes OK for Audiophiles?

The short answer to the subject heading question is "yes" (IMHO).

> I plan to use an AirPort Express and AirTunes for this, using the
> optical out to feed the amp.

This should be just fine. I recently read a short article (I forget
where) discussing the audio performance of the AirPort Express audio
out jack. The conclusion was that the analog out was poor quality
(which is what you would expect from such an inexpensive multi
function device), but the performance characteristics of the optical
digital out was good---comparable to very good CD players.

> My most important question: how is the audio quality going to
> compare to a serious prosumer Marantz CD player?

Honestly, I don't think you will be able to hear a difference (if you
conduct a very carefully designed double-blind test), assuming that
the D/A converter on the receiving end is well designed. Data is
data, regardless of whether it is coming from a computer of from a CD
player, especially if the downstream components are good enough (and
most modern components are) to correct for any problems that might
arise in transmission.

> I've been able to hear the difference between digital coax and
> optical interconnects before (digital sounds better, as the high-fi
> shop agreed, which goes against what us computer people would
> expect), so am a little worried the Express with its optical output
> would also sound a bit flatter.

I have no intension of starting a flame war here, so please take this
as MHO. I don't think you will hear any difference between the two
interconnects if you conduct a carefully calibrated double-blind
test. The differences you heard were probably a result of other
things happening in the system as you switched between the two
interconnects. (For example, small differences in output level.
Humans can discern differences of a fraction of a db, and generally
feel that the louder playback sounds better.)

Each transmission format has its set of pros and cons, but if you use
reasonably reliable cables, with well designed gear, there is no
reason why you should hear any difference between the two.
Especially because well designed modern DACs should be able to deal
with any transmission problems (like jitter) introduced by the
transmission medium.

I have a high-end Sony transport from about 5 years ago connected to
an outboard DAC via coax and the Airport Express connected by Toslink
to the same DAC. Using the same CD I cannot tell the difference.
(Perhaps I have tin ears, but having trained as a classical
conductor, I'd like to think my ears are okay.)

So, I wouldn't worry too much about the whole coax/optical issue.
Though audiophiles will swear up and down that they can hear the
difference between not just digital formats but different digital
cables, IMHO it's a non-issue. Making sure that you have an accurate
rip in iTunes (even with lossless) is likely to make a much bigger
difference, but that's an entirely different thread all together.

My 2 cents.

Tn

On Jul 27, 2005, at 4:31 PM, Tom Robinson wrote:

> We have an iMac elsewhere in the living room, so will use that to get
> started, though will involve the inconvience of a short walk and
> probably switching users. Longer term am thinking of purchasing a
> Mac mini, keyboard, mouse (maybe trackball), and some kind of small
> screen...
>
> Another option would be an iBook but that works out more expensive
> and the extra 80 Gig in the mini is probably going to be needed!
>
> Interested in thoughts on this second stage too. I'm choosing iTunes
> and a computer over something like the Squeezebox, as I want more
> than a two line display to navigate the collection.

Agreed about the better usability of the iTunes interface over
dedicated media players. I tried the Roku media player for a while.
It has a relatively large display, and I really wanted to like it,
but ultimately went back to using iTunes.

What I found using an first generation G4 iBook as the iTunes player
was that it tended to make noise---the fan would come on, or the HD
would click and whine, or some such---at the most inopportune times.
Noise from the external HD I used for additional storage was even
more annoying. Depending on the type of music, how loud you play
your music, and how much ambient noise their is to begin with, this
may be a non-issue, but I found it irritating enough to look for
something else.

I looked into the Mac Mini since it looked like it might be a
significant improvement in this regard. Unfortunately, while 15 and
17 inch LCDs are dirt cheap, smaller screens (like 7 inches) were
actually more expensive, making the cost of the Mini set up more than
I wanted to pay. (And I really didn't want a 15 inch screen in my
living room. The separate keyboard and mouse didn't appeal much,
either)

Ultimately, I ended up moving the "music server" and the associated
HD to a mac in a different room piping music with Airport express.
Now I use a VNC client on the iBook to control the iTunes on the
server machine remotely. Basically, the iBook serves as a remote for
the music server. When the music is playing, the iBook is closed and
tucked away making no noise whatever.

Tn

Are you planning to use an Aiport Express or a Squeezebox?

I believe the Squeezebox has a coax digital output as well as the optical
ouput.

Hope it helps.

Geoff Armstrong

> Ultimately, I ended up moving the "music server" and the associated
> HD to a mac in a different room piping music with Airport express.
> Now I use a VNC client on the iBook to control the iTunes on the
> server machine remotely. Basically, the iBook serves as a remote for
> the music server. When the music is playing, the iBook is closed and
> tucked away making no noise whatever.

Even cooler in some ways (though not quite as practical in others) is using
a network-capable handheld with VNC; both Palm and Pocket PC have VNC
clients available, as does the Sharp Zaurus line of linux-based PDA's.

>Interested in thoughts on this second stage too. I'm choosing iTunes
>and a computer over something like the Squeezebox, as I want more
>than a two line display to navigate the collection.

I would highly recommend that you reconsider the Squeezebox2. It has
several features that are quite specifically addressed at
audiophiles, and I've found its interface to be quite excellent --
especially since, unlike some people on this list, I don't really
enjoy the idea of getting up from the couch and walking to a computer
and mousing around if I want to change playlists, browse artists, or
navigate tracks.

My last-ditch attempt. :-)

-jason
--
Jason Snell: jsnellintertext.com - AIM/iChat: mw jsnell
www.teevee.org - sports.intertext.com

At 1:31 PM -0700 7/27/05, Tom Robinson wrote:
>So far I have [...] a portion of my CD collection ripped in Apple
>Lossless and organised with iTunes.
>[...]
>I plan to use an AirPort Express and AirTunes for this, using the
>optical out to feed the amp.
>[...]
>My most important question: how is the audio quality going to
>compare to a serious prosumer Marantz CD player?

Short answer: optical output should be just fine. The analog output
will probably be OK for casual living-room to higher-end use but will
fall down in audiophile situations.

Longer answer: for optical, the quality of the D/A conversion in your
amp will be somewhat significant, as will output levels, the quality
of your connections, your monitors, and (of course) the space. In my
*very limited* experience with AirTunes, the optical output seemed
essentially equivalent to optical output from prosumer and
professional gear. Conversely, the analog output was typical
consumer-grade: discernibly noisy with less dynamic range and some
harmonic distortion. About the same as the analog audio from a Mac
(which is usually pretty crap-tacular, from an audiophile standpoint).

Anyway: the optical outs sounded fine, and this was over about 15
minutes of listening a) n a mastering studio, b) with great gear and
c) with reference recordings we knew well.

In everyday and home situations, most people - even audiophiles -
probably won't be able to tell the difference between the optical and
analog output, and other factors will probably be more important to
the overall sound quality.

Hope that helps --

gd
--
Geoff Duncan TidBITS Technical Editor <http://www.tidbits.com/>

At 7:06 PM -0700 7/28/05, Jason Snell wrote:
>I would highly recommend that you reconsider the Squeezebox2. It has
>several features that are quite specifically addressed at
>audiophiles, and I've found its interface to be quite excellent --
>especially since, unlike some people on this list, I don't really
>enjoy the idea of getting up from the couch and walking to a computer
>and mousing around if I want to change playlists, browse artists, or
>navigate tracks.

I have to second this; I have a Squeezebox, and I like it a lot.

I also have an AirPort Express, also, but I find that I use that as a
small access point when I travel, rather than for music.
--
-- Marshall

Marshall Clow Idio Software <mailto:marshallidio.com>

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

Alternatives to setting up VNC on the remote computer include the
application Remote Remote <http://homepage.mac.com/netrag/
softwaredownload/FileSharing18.html> which can display the current
playlist and selection playing on the remote computer.

Alternatively, if you just want to control pausing and skipping, you
could use one a Keyspan Express Remote <http://www.keyspan.com/
products/usb/urm17a/> with the receiver connected to the USB port of
the Airport Express.

Alan Forkosh Oakland, CA
aforkoshmac.com

On Jul 28, 2005, at 8:44 AM, Tomoharu Nishino wrote:

>
>
> Ultimately, I ended up moving the "music server" and the associated
> HD to a mac in a different room piping music with Airport express.
> Now I use a VNC client on the iBook to control the iTunes on the
> server machine remotely. Basically, the iBook serves as a remote for
> the music server. When the music is playing, the iBook is closed and
> tucked away making no noise whatever.

--On July 28, 2005 7:06:01 PM -0700 Travis Butler <tbutlerbirch.net> wrote:
>
> Even cooler in some ways (though not quite as practical in others) is
> using a network-capable handheld with VNC; both Palm and Pocket PC have
> VNC clients available, as does the Sharp Zaurus line of linux-based PDA's.
>

I've used salling clicker with my bluetooth Zaire 72 to control itunes from
all over my (small) house. The mac mini sits upstairs, and the bedrooms are
all downstairs right under the mini so i'm still within 150'.

A little less processor intensive than VNC, but I think it works better.

> I'm wanting to digitise my music listening.
>
> We have an iMac elsewhere in the living room, so will use that to get
> started, though will involve the inconvience of a short walk and
> probably switching users. Longer term am thinking of purchasing a
> Mac mini, keyboard, mouse (maybe trackball), and some kind of small
> screen. Mount the Mac mini in the stereo rack and put the keyboard
> and screen on the top of the rack and use iTunes to play my collection.

I have placed an PowerMac 6100/66 next to the stereo and equipped it with
Timbuktu Pro. Thus I can manage the Mac remotely without the need for a
monitor and keyboard cluttering the stereo rack. This oughta be possible
with a Mac Mini, too...

Regards,

Udo

On Jul 29, 2005, at 10:20 AM, Marshall Clow wrote:

> I also have an AirPort Express, also, but I find that I use that as a
> small access point when I travel, rather than for music.

We use an AirPort Express, and it's good enough with analog. But I'm
not a hardcore audiophile[1], so your mileage may vary.

To the OP: have you considered finding someone to borrow an Airport
Express from to see if it does what you want? Tastes in equipment
tend to be personal, so that might be the way to go. If you're in
Western Massachusetts, I'd be happy to lend you an AE for a couple of
hours so you can evaluate it. Alternately, they're incredibly useful
as portable access points as well, so if you have a use for one of
those, you could buy it and try it yourself. That was the situation
I was in, and so the audio capability was just a pleasant bonus.

Charlton

[1] Tongue-in-cheek definition: a music lover listens to the music;
an audiophile listens to the equipment.

--
Charlton Wilbur
cwilburchromatico.net

        Another (expensive, new) option: the Olive Symphony.

http://www.theregister.com/2005/07/29/olive_symphony/


                                                Chris
--
Chris Pepper: <http://www.reppep.com/~pepper/>
Rockefeller University: <http://www.rockefeller.edu/>

Thanks everybody for contributing to this discussion--the response
has been overwhelming!

While it's been interesting to note the recommendations for
Squeezebox 2 (and some equivalent products), I'm still wanting
something which provides decent browsing capabilities to my
collection--and the two line display on the Squeezebox just doesn't
cut it. Despite having iPods with associated playlists and random
functionality, we still choose albums to play by browsing through
albums and artists (often within a genre).

I hadn't thought of remote controlling a computer, and that's
something I'll definitely look into in stage 2. Using an iBook to
remote control the 'audio' computer is the most intriguing: I get
the small screen, mouse & keyboard in a single unit, it can sit on
top of the stereo, and I don't need to worry about the specs.

My question about an optical digital output vs. coaxial digital
output on the AirPort Express was only partially answered. As a
background, when I upgraded from optical to coax between the CD
transport and amp a while ago I noticed some music was brighter and
more defined. This wasn't a blind test, just something I noticed
over the subsequent weeks. When I expressed my surprise at the
specialist audio shop, they agreed a coax digital connection often
sounds better than an optical one.

I've since found a review which has set my mind at rest on this
point. While the AirPort Express analogue output has a few glitches,
the digital is perfect. The review also provides more technical
details than Apple has included in the AE Technology Overview.

[... interestingly] the AE functions only at a 44.1kHz sample rate
[identical to a CD]. When you play 32kHz or 48kHz data, iTunes sample-
rate-converts the data in real time before sending it to the AE.

[...]

Some audiophiles have dissed the AirPort Express on the grounds that
its digital output is not bit-accurate. However, I found that this
was not the case, that the data appearing on the AE's digital output
were identical in the original file. To check this, I compared a WAV
file with a duplicate that I had captured on my PC from the AirPort
Express's S/PDIF output. I used iTunes on my PowerBook playing a
version of the file encoded with Apple Lossless Compression to feed
data to the AE. The files were bit-for-bit identical, proving that
the AirPort Express is transparent to the music data (as is ALC, for
that matter).

[... but the] AE doesn't have a local clock circuit, when the
incoming data is interrupted, as it is when you change songs in
iTunes, there is no longer a digital output to feed the DAC, which
loses lock as a result. [...] with some [... ] DACs, the first
seconds of a song might be cut off.

[...]

The beauty of this unassuming component, however, is its S/PDIF data
output, which allows the AirPort Express to assume a respectable role
in a true high-end audio system.

<http://stereophile.com/accessoryreviews/505apple/>


I've been quite taken with the external drive I've purchased: an
Hitachi 400 Gig drive inside an AMS Venus DS3 enclosure, with USB and
FireWire connections. The fan and disk noise is minimal.

<http://www.amselectronics.com/Products/VenusSeries/Venus_ds/
Venus_DS3_Flyer.pdf>

Many thanks to everyone for taking the time to reply, and Charlton
for offering the loan of his unit (but Western Massachusetts is a bit
far from Wellington, New Zealand!)

At 6:52 AM -0700 8/1/05, Tom Robinson wrote:
>Thanks everybody for contributing to this discussion--the response
>has been overwhelming!

The Airtunes thing is almost a "side benefit" more than a reason to
buy it, at least for me.

I bought my AE specifically to extend my home base station. My house
has a large stone fireplace in the center of an "X" layout, and it
casts a dark 802.11 shadow... no matter where I put my base station,
there was always an annoying dead area, which is of course where I
wanted to sit at some point. Now I just carry the AE around and plug
it in nearby, but at the fringe of the "shadow", and it works
wonderfully to extend my wireless network. I even can extend the
network out to my barn, so I can be online and listen to tunes while
wrenching away on my old car.

The "profiles" feature of the AE is nice as well, as I have built
three now. One for home network extending. Another for "generic DHCP"
travel use. (why don't hotels ever have enough power outlets??) An
another for just iTunes use at work.

I keep iTunes running all day, with soft music in the background. I
started using the AE when my speakers developed an annoying hum when
plugged directly into my powerbook. No amount of ground-loop magnet
experimentation would make it go away, but oddly enough the AE cured
it.

An amazingly useful device. I am NOT an audiophile by any stretch, so
I could not comment on that, but I have to say the unit is so useful,
you won't regret buying one... even if it doesn't live up to your
"ear-geek" standards.


--chuck

Another vote for the SqueezeBox from me. I've got all of my music categorised in iTunes, and the Squeezebox server software will pick up all of the playlists (note sure about Smart Playlists) fine. The benefit of the Squeezebox (I have 2xSliMP3s, and 2xSqueezebox 1s) is that you can serve your music anywhere where there's a network connection (or in the case of the wireless options, anywhere). They're also solid-state, so totally quiet; hence your music listening doesn't have to be where the server is.

In short, you can probably buy a couple Squeezeboxes for the price you'd pay for the mini.

As for the 'two lines isn't enough' -- have you used one? It's like saying 'How useful can a single scroll wheel be when I need to move up and down on my portable music device'. Once you've tried it -- and the fact that it comes with a hand-held remote control (so you can use it anywhere too) you'll find it's trivial to navigate through your collection.

Furthermore, there's a web-based interface that can be used to navigate through your collection and order items to play in the playlist, much like the iTunes party shuffle feature works. If you've got a computer to navigate through iTunes, you've got a a computer to navigate through the squeezeserver interface.

Squeezeboxes come with digital audio out, which is likely to be of exactly the same quality as the express, since the D/A conversion in your music setup will be where the quality comes from, not the network decoder. But the Squeezebox has (IMHO) pretty good D/A conversion for its outputs in any case.

The server is open-source; you can download it and play around with it yourself, including playing with the web-based tracking interface. It also sends out a streaming MP3 file (http://localhost:9000/stream.mp3) which you can point to any streaming MP3 capable player (e.g. iTunes or one of the many others) to see how you can drive it from the web player alone. Downside is that it can't play iTunes Store tracks (no DRM support) but handles stuff like Ogg by transcoding on the fly.

Disclaimer: I've got two airport expresses that I only use as portable wireless hubs (one of which travels with me in my laptop bag). I've also got 4 slim devices in my house (1 wireless, 1 wired squeezebox, 2 slimp3s) and have sold 6 others to my friends, who on average have 2 each. Other than that, I've no interest in SlimDevices (or Apple) for that matter.

My wife finds the Slim stuff easy to use, and it doubles up as a digital clock when not playing music. when I reinstalled the server a while back and we were without clock for a few hours, she was completely lost :-)

Here is a review of the airport express from one of the major audiophile music loving magazines (I disagree that audiophiles focus on sound over music, this is a generalization that is usually false IMHO).

http://www.stereophile.com/accessoryreviews/505apple/index.html

I use the airport frequently with my laptop and just browse all the libraries in the house which are shared and play from the laptop usually while sitting on the sofa. I also use VNC and play it from other machines. I started out listening to WAV files, but switched to 192 MP3 for convenience. I wish I could make 192 sound as good as CD, but it doesn't, no way. Love iPod in the car, wish I had a 100 GB ipod...

Ron

On 7/29/05 at 7:21 AM, kevinvanhaaren.net (Kevin van Haaren) wrote:

> --On July 28, 2005 7:06:01 PM -0700 Travis Butler <tbutlerbirch.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > Even cooler in some ways (though not quite as practical in others)
> > is using a network-capable handheld with VNC; both Palm and Pocket
> > PC have VNC clients available, as does the Sharp Zaurus line of
> > linux-based PDA's.
> >
>
> I've used salling clicker with my bluetooth Zaire 72 to control
> itunes from all over my (small) house. The mac mini sits upstairs,
> and the bedrooms are all downstairs right under the mini so i'm still
> within 150'.
>
> A little less processor intensive than VNC, but I think it works
> better.

Depends on what you're looking for, really. I've played around with
Salling Clicker several times on my Palm/PB, and every time ended up
uninstalling it because while it was a cool technology, it never fit my
needs. The included controllers were just too limited/clumsy for what I
wanted to do; while you could browse iTunes songs, ferex, I remember it
taking enough work that I didn't find it useful. And Salling Clicker is
*much* better than any of the other remotes I've played with.

Even the iPod is more limited than I'd like in dealing with large music
libraries, and it's got the best 'portable/remote' interface I've used.
The full iTunes interface is far better suited to dealing with large
volumes of songs than the subset you get on a typical remote platform,
at least for me; to give one example, I often like to find and play a
particular song when the whim strikes me, and the full iTunes interface
makes it far faster to do so - and gives greater context - than even the
ideogrammic iPod scroll wheel. So while VNC is often sluggish, and took
some fussing to get up and running, it fits my usage style far better.
(Same reason why I don't use any of the separate iTunes menu
bar/Dashboard/floating window controllers, or even the dock icon's
shortcuts; I want to deal with the full interface.)

That's VNC on a full-fledged laptop, which has the advantage of a full
keyboard and screen, but the disadvantage of being a fairly large, heavy
remote, and overkill to boot unless you're using it for something else
as well (like I am here, typing this reply on the couch while
controlling iTunes on my desktop player). (And if you're using an
Airport Express and can spare the bandwidth, you also have the option of
running iTunes on your server and accessing its shared library from
iTunes on the laptop, then playing to the AExp. The interface doesn't
lag as with VNC, but in areas with weaker Airport reception the audio
can stutter.)

VNC on a handheld has its own set of tradeoffs; it's as small and light
as a regular remote and gives you the full iTunes interface, but you
either have to scroll a lot or scale the screen enough that it's hard to
read. Having to use an on-screen keyboard or less-than-accurate
handwriting eliminates a lot of the full iTunes' advantage in browsing
the library; OTOH, a lot of handhelds these days have mini-keyboards
that work quite well enough for typing bits of song names in iTunes.

(This turned out to be rather longer than I intended. <wry g> However, I
think it also addresses some of the comments others have brought up
about the Squeezebox/Keyspan/other remotes.)


Travis Butler
tbutlermac.com

...Cats are the proof of a higher purpose to the universe.

At 6:52 AM -0700 8/1/05, Tom Robinson wrote:
>While it's been interesting to note the recommendations for
>Squeezebox 2 (and some equivalent products), I'm still wanting
>something which provides decent browsing capabilities to my
>collection--and the two line display on the Squeezebox just doesn't
>cut it.

If I may comment, I wrote TidBITS' review of the SLIMP3, SqueezeBox
and SqueezeBox2.
http://db.tidbits.com/getbits.acgi?tbart=07150
http://db.tidbits.com/getbits.acgi?tbart=07637
http://db.tidbits.com/getbits.acgi?tbart=08128

After finishing the last one, I realized I'd written two thousand
words on a device without more than an offhand reference to its
interface. That's because it works so well. It's very fast,
exceptionally well designed, infinitely configurable and surprisingly
lets you drill through a large collection very quickly. You're not
restricted to scrolling through lists -- at *any* point you can hit
the number keys for T9 input (like texting on a cell phone) and
*poof* you land at the indicated letter.

I wouldn't dismiss it until you've tried it. Finding a physical unit
may be challenging in NZ, but you can install SlimServer on your Mac,
right now, for free. Fire it up, then load SoftSqueeze in your
browser and sample the interface. (Be sure to give SoftSqueeze a few
seconds to that the JavaVM can start its caching thing.)
        http://<yourcomputer>:9000/html/softsqueeze/applet.html

-Andrew

--
Andrew Laurence atlaurenes.nacs.uci.edu
Network & Academic Computing Svcs. http://www.nacs.uci.edu/~atlauren/
UC Irvine

Sorry for posting so late, I just found this thread linked from one of the older TidBits issues...

I totally have to agree that the optical output is way better than the analog. The problem with my stereo is: The secondary speaker output only works via analog and therefore I have to switch between the optical and the analoge cable to either get high quality on the main pair or be able to listen to music on the secondary speakers.

My question is: Does anyone know if there are "dual" cables out there which allow to connect both an optical and an electrical cable to the output (TOSlink separation)? The alternative would be to crack the AE open and solder a cable directly - obviously not a very nice choice ;-).

BTW: The above mentioned alternative from Olive is originally from germany and called Hermstedt Hifidelio: http://hermstedt.de/german/hifidelio/hifidelio.html

Hi people,

After 1.5 months of my new set up, I thought I'd share my
experience. In summary, AirTunes *is* OK for audiophiles.

Initially I had the AirPort Express digital out feeding directly into
the amplifier, and thought I could *just* detect a slightly poorer
sound than the CD transport (not a blind test). Likely caused by the
CD player having a better DAC than the amplifier.

This configuration didn't cater for music in multiple rooms though:
the amplifier (in fact, most/all? amplifiers) won't convert a digital
signal to analog for the output jacks (which is where the secondary
amplifiers pick up their signal from).

So I worked the credit card and bought a Musical Fidelity X-DAC v3
with X-PSU v3 power supply. I was a bit reluctant to feed my
amplifier analogue signals instead of digital, until it was pointed
out that all I was doing was externalising the D to A stage, and at
considerably better quality than most amps can manage.

So the chain is: CD -> ripped in Apple Lossless (with error
correction) -> iTunes -> AirTunes over Ethernet (usually) to AirPort
Express -> DAC (via Stereo Connection Kit with Monster Cable) -> main
amp (over King Cobra interconnects) -> secondary amps.

I'm now very happy with the audio quality, and can't hear the
difference between the transport and ripped music (also not a blind
test).

Advantages include significant physical space saving from not storing
CDs in the living room, whole collection on call for syncing to
iPods, a backup of music CDs, and easier selection of music
(including choosing albums from around the house on my PowerBook).

Disadvantages include iTunes occassionally pausing the music for
about 0.25 seconds if the computer's overtaxed; a real effort to
digitise the music; the gap between tracks on live albums (I know
there's workarounds, but they're cludges); and I'm now even more
cautious about upgrading iTunes, not wanting to affect my music
player or library!

Overall I'm very pleased with the set up.

Cheers