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![[F]](/Images/i7/site.gif) TidBITS  TidBITS TidBITS Talk
Annoyance with support for Apple software![[Joslin, Anyse]](/webx/?30@@1) Anyse Joslin - 01:03pm Jun 2, 2005 PSTGuest UserHere is a description of a problem that I am having with Apple. I was
wondering what would happen if EVERYONE called them and did the same
thing with recently purchased "90-day" support software would Apple
change its policy of harrassment and intimidation. The story follows:
About Apple.
Every time you call Apple, and select "technical support," you can
say what program of the Apple Suite (outside of what came with Tiger)
on that voice answering router. Next, they ask you for what computer
you are using. Next they ask you if it is a computer purchased in or
for a school (I guess educator buy). I have never answered the school
question with a "yes." I may try later today. From there you are
routed to a technical support person.
Next, when you get a tech person, they ask these questions:
Your name
What you are calling about
Your computer's serial number
Here is where the "glitch" comes in. First of all, you are not
talking with a software support person! You have reached a
"specialist" in the computer that you indicated earlier!
So, what if you DON'T give them a serial number because you are
calling about a "software" product? They DEMAND your computer serial
number to see if you are covered under Applecare so that they can
then give you support.
However, the fact of the matter is that you are not calling about a
"hardware" problem . . . you are calling about a "software" problem.
What does this have to do with Applecare or your computer serial
number? Nothing! Should you not want to give them the serial number
of your computer because you are having a problem with software that
they sell to you . . . they will give you a hard time!
When I tell them that I am having a problem with Tiger and they
already know that I have a Powerbook G4, there should be NO problem
as Tiger is now only 31 days old and they are supposed to support
software for 90 days from the date of purchase. So, I ask again, what
does my computer's serial number and Applecare have to do with a
problem with recently and, as they say, fully supported software for
90 days?
When I asked a supervisor why, under the above conditions, I can't
get any help without a lot of hassle, he proceeded to tell me that if
I did not have Applecare I would not be seen as a person who should
receive support and that (here is the rip!) they would have to start
a "support ticket" to ascertain whether or not I would have to pay
(or not pay) for telephone support. I then asked him, "Are you
telling me that, if I need help on an Apple software product, I am
going to get a hassle?" He answered, "Yes."
What kind of crap is that? Apple sets up a system whereby anyone
seeking help with a software product will be faced with a number of
"administrative" hurdles that are so terribly inefficient that,
should that poor soul seeking Apple's support not be hearty or
aggressive, will only make them try to "avoid" going to them for much
needed help. I have even been told that I will have to rely on the
Apple forums for software help on software that is still under the 90-
day support policy. I have been to these forums and, unfortunately,
they are populated by so many seeking information and so few of the
"Apple faithful" (Apple customers) to give them the answers that they
seek. So, in effect, they want Apple customers, who by right through
the legal purchase of Apple software, to support themselves!
Is this any way to run a business? Is this the company who made
computers for "the rest of us"?
I don't think so. I think we can now count Apple along with the other
robber barons of our current "corporatocracy."
If you don't believe this, try it yourself and call Apple at (800)
275-2273.
By the way, should you get past the "serial number" issue, they don't
bother to tell you that they CAN help you . . . they want that serial
number so badly that you can hear them grunting on the other end from
the stress and strain to make sure that you give it to them. They
could live by the motto, "Give me your computer serial number, even
if it makes no real difference to the whole issue of my helping you,
or I won't help you."
Anyse
John C. Welch (apparently)
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Jun 6, 2005 8:19 pm
(#1 Total: 11)
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Re: Annoyance with support for Apple software
On 6/2/05 15:03, "Anyse Joslin" <anyse1  mac.com> wrote:
> Is this any way to run a business? Is this the company who made
> computers for "the rest of us"?
>
> I don't think so. I think we can now count Apple along with the other
> robber barons of our current "corporatocracy."
Apple has always been, since going public, no different than any other
company. Any desire to see them as some kind of more moral or more pure
entity is a mistake on the part of the people with that particular view. If
you are displeased with that supervisor's comment, ask for his or her
supervisor.
If you live near an Apple store other Apple experts, I would recommend going
to them. Software support at the user level is a loss. It is always a loss.
By the time you've talked to a human for more than 5 minutes, any money made
from your sale is long gone. They have no real desire to hold your hand for
one second longer than necessary, esp. in the 'free' support period.
I don't necessarily agree with that position, but it is the reality of
things, and as such, we must understand that so as to better work around it.
However, you did not tell us the name of the software product you want
support on. Did it ship with your powerbook? Did you buy it outside of that
purchase? Without that information, there is literally, no hope of helping
you, unless the situation has already been resolved and you were merely
sounding off.
If the software did ship with your powerbook, then their stance makes some
sense. If it did not, then there may be better solutions for you that one of
the list members knows about. But providing the basic information would
really be a help.
john
--
John C. Welch Writer/Analyst
Bynkii.com Mac and other opinions
jwelch bynkii.com
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brady (apparently)
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Jun 6, 2005 8:19 pm
(#2 Total: 11)
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Re: Annoyance with support for Apple software
This experience and others like it (including more than one of my
own) is why I rarely call technical support. I find the on-line
discussion boards to be more helpful and more fruitful sources of
help for my software problems.
The apple discussion boards can be accessed at
http://discussions.info.apple.com/.
Brady Johnson
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Todd Ruston (apparently)
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Jun 6, 2005 8:19 pm
(#3 Total: 11)
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Re: Annoyance with support for Apple software
On 6/2/05 at 1:03 PM, Anyse Joslin <anyse1 mac.com> wrote:
> Is this any way to run a business? Is this the company who made
> computers for "the rest of us"?
Is it nonsensical for Apple to ask for a hardware serial number when
calling about a software problem? Maybe.
Is it so hard to bring up "About this Mac" and click "More Info" to get the
serial number, work with Apple's system, and get on with things? I think
not. They elect to link support contacts and cases to hardware serial
numbers; no biggie. The serial number also tells them exactly what hardware
you're running the software on, eliminating any confusion about Quicksilver
vs Mirror Drive Door or TiBook vs AlBook, etc. This can be useful
information to give accurate answers regarding the software (particularly
OS software like Tiger).
I agree that some of Apple's support policies are stingy to the point of
tarnishing the brand, but this seems a minor procedural issue. I think a
better battle to fight is their stance on issues such as hard drive
warranties and OS X Server support. On the hard drive front, without
AppleCare the warranty is just one year along with the rest of the
computer, yet most HD mechanism warranties from the HD manufacturers are
3-5 yrs. Is Apple sourcing drives for their machines that are inferior to
mass market drives? If not, why not cover the hard drives for a "customary"
period? If they are inferior, why the heck is Apple using inferior drives?
And for OS X Server, it has the same 90-day up-and-running support as the
desktop OS, but anything beyond getting it booted (particularly questions
regarding cross-platform interoperability, a key OS X Server attribute that
Apple marketing highly touts) requires extra paid support, which starts at
$6,000 for the cheapest annual plan, or $750 per incident. That borders on
usurious and unconscionable. (I fully understand that OS X Server support
can quickly become very complicated and time consuming, particularly in
cross-platform scenarios, and I don't begrudge Apple wanting to stay
solvent. But there's got to be a better way than charging for the worst
case scenario for all cases.)
--
Todd Ruston
todd hackneyponies.com
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Jeff Porten (apparently)
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Jun 6, 2005 8:19 pm
(#4 Total: 11)
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Re: Annoyance with support for Apple software
Yesterday I called my hotspot provider to report a problem they were
having with one of their routers. My end of the conversation went
like this: "Here's my social security number. Yes, I have a laptop.
Yes, I have a wireless card. PowerBook. A-i-r-p-o-r-t. It's the
standard Apple brand. Look, I was connected to your network 15
minutes ago, and I do this for a living, so can I talk to a
technician now?"
Seven minutes later: "Hi! I'm Angie! I understand you're having a
problem with your GPRS connection?"
Me: "No, Angie, that was *last* week...."
Which is to say -- I can't say that this Apple story bothers me. In
most service industries, the markets are selling in higher volume
than direct customer support can handle. Given the universe of
potential service calls for an OS, it's quite valid to say, "Look,
just use Google. We can't train a rep to know enough to potentially
cover everything you might ask us."
If the calls were limited to the sort of services that actually
require one-on-one with the company, such as bad media or a blown
wifi router, then those people would get quality service. The issue
is that the works are gummed up by calls asking how to use Quicktime
Player to covert a DV into a 3GP file. And their solution, annoying
as it might be for those of us who think we're more privileged than
every other caller, is to implement front-line filters to distribute
the call volume.
In Apple's case, there's also a plan B, which I usually recommend to
my clients: don't pick up the phone. Go to an Apple Store. They'll
generally give you AppleCare-level support for software issues long
past the sell-by date of your official warranty.
Best,
Jeff
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Paul N. Schatz
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Jun 6, 2005 8:19 pm
(#5 Total: 11)
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Re: Annoyance with support for Apple software
My
brother, who is not computer adept, to put it mildly, has Apple Care.
Those folks have been willing to spend hours at a time, literally, and
with patience, helping him. A serial number does not seem much
of an extra price to pay.
Paul
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dondi
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Jun 6, 2005 8:19 pm
(#6 Total: 11)
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Re: Annoyance with support for Apple software
Our host computer a 1GHz FP iMac is suddenly unable to use the printer. From File to Print the normal window drops down with the Epson Stylus C60 shown as the printer. Click Print and a fleeting window appears "Processing pg 1". The Stylus C60 3.9 (v3.0) Manage the printers jobs utility says "Starting job", a spooling barbers pole effect appears and it says printing 0, 13%, then it says "Printer not responding".
We have two FP iMacs on a local IP network. The host computer, connected to the printer is set up with printer sharing on and is running 10.3.9. and it is the one that cannot communicate with the printer. The other iMac on the network however is able to print.
Things I have tried:
1. Stopped the share printer mode
2. Repaired permissions
3. Individually "trashed" the following plists from the home folder:
com.apple.print.PrintingPrefs.plist
com.apple.print.PrinterProxy.Stylus_C60.plist
com.apple.print.PrintCenter.plist
com.apple.print.custompresets.plist
com.apple.print.Cache.000d93c26b0a.plist
There are 2 other plists in the Mac HD-Library but not sure if I should "trash" them.
com.apple.print.FaxPrefs.plist
com.apple.print.defaultpapersize.plist
4. Moved the usb cable from the printer to another host computer port. Although the original port must have been ok since the other computer could print from that connection on the network.
5. I tried the idea posted in the Apple discussions Print/Fax by Peter Russell that said to delete the printer. Reboot and go to the Printer Set Up utility and set up the printer again but the computer could not find the printer. Now there is no printer selected and Print is grayed out.
6. Went to the Epson website and emailed them a description of the problem. They sent instructions to remove the Epson folder in the Mac HD Library and download the driver and reinstall. This was done. Repaired permissions again. The computer/Printer Set Up is still unable find the C60 driver.
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anaddress
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Jun 7, 2005 7:10 am
(#7 Total: 11)
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Re: Annoyance with support for Apple software
On Jun 2, 2005, at 1:03 PM, Anyse Joslin wrote:
>When I tell them that I am having a problem with Tiger and they
>already know that I have a Powerbook G4, there should be NO problem
>as Tiger is now only 31 days old and they are supposed to support
>software for 90 days from the date of purchase. So, I ask again, what
>does my computer's serial number and Applecare have to do with a
>problem with recently and, as they say, fully supported software for
>90 days?
First off, I'm a former AppleCare frontline tech…I handled both portables and desktops. I'm no longer at that position (moved on to a better one), but I worked there for a while…so these are my comments, not Apple's.
First off, when I was troubleshooting something it's much, much simpler to troubleshoot with the serial number…That gives the tech the Apple-shipped config of the computer, which helps troubleshooting. Once I had the serial, I can look up the config, what it shipped with, if the computer supports Tiger, etc. Without that I'd be shooting blind…wouldn't know if you needed the CD version of Tiger, for instance.
Also, Apple uses the serial number of the computer to track everything related to it…support (like the 90 days of support that comes with Tiger), what kind of issues are called about, heck, it even lets Engineering find what issues happen to different products!
I'm sorry you had a bad time calling AppleCare, but have you ever been on the other end of the telephone? Your sole job is to do two things: Fix Apple HW/SW, and attempt to help people find support for stuff that Apple doesn't do. This ranges from helping customers who just need you to set up a repair (rarely) to dealing with people that have trouble finding the Apple menu and don't understand technical terms like "click". Oh, and mixed into all this is keeping call times "reasonable", keeping up with everything Apple releases…figure 18 hours of training for an OS release, and one hour for even a simple version bump.
To top it off, you're dumped on by customers endlessly…complaints about other agents (some legit, some not), complaints about service, complaints about long hold times (I always found these ironic, since by complaining at me you increase hold times for someone else), complaints that Apple should cover everything, including their obscure printer from Taiwan, complaints that they lost data from…the list goes on and on. It's a very stressful position, and tends to have high turnover.
And don't even mention how constrained the position is…you've got procedures covering everything you do. It's not scripted, but you're not given much leeway.
What makes the above so tragic is that Apple's been the #1 in tech support according to Consumer Reports for 5 years…
To attempt to summarize, the tech has good reasons for asking for what he does, and you're just making his/her life difficult and making them less inclined to be nice to you later in the call. Think of it this way…Do you want the tech to be your friend?
I know that I would bend over backwards to help people who were nicer/more polite and many of my friends were the same…it was referred to as "Passing the attitude test".
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tbutler (apparently)
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Jun 7, 2005 5:11 pm
(#8 Total: 11)
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Re: Annoyance with support for Apple software
On 6/6/05 at 8:19 PM, civitan jeffporten.com (Jeff Porten) wrote:
> Which is to say -- I can't say that this Apple story bothers me. In
> most service industries, the markets are selling in higher volume
> than direct customer support can handle. Given the universe of
> potential service calls for an OS, it's quite valid to say, "Look,
> just use Google. We can't train a rep to know enough to potentially
> cover everything you might ask us."
>
> If the calls were limited to the sort of services that actually
> require one-on-one with the company, such as bad media or a blown
> wifi router, then those people would get quality service. The issue
> is that the works are gummed up by calls asking how to use Quicktime
> Player to covert a DV into a 3GP file. And their solution, annoying
> as it might be for those of us who think we're more privileged than
> every other caller, is to implement front-line filters to distribute
> the call volume.
Absolutely. In the early 90's, I spent two years working for APS Tech
Support (hard drives, for those who don't remember APS); I started full
of optimism and enthusiasm for helping people with problems, but by the
time I left I was near-burnout and had a very dim view of a large
percentage of the people who called support.
Especially when you're dealing with a 'foundation-level' product like a
computer, an OS, or a hard drive, there's a tendency for a lot of people
to believe that a problem they're having must be your product's fault,
because your product is the foundation for what they're doing. It's a
bit hard to remember more than a decade later, but I'd bet we spent as
much or more time diagnosing and debugging crashes related to system
software or various applications as we did problems related to the
hardware and disk drivers we sold. This wasn't a huge problem at first,
as we had enough techs to keep up with the call load, but the sales
expanded faster than we could afford to add techs...
Which is another serious part of the equation: the marketplace push to
the lowest possible price has helped consumers in many ways, but in many
cases it's also taken away the margin that made tech support possible,
along with the service extras that customers wanted. For example, when I
started there, we would on occasion do a 'cross-ship' for warranty work
when a customer needed a drive badly; ship a replacement out as they
shipped theirs back, so that they 'crossed' in shipping. We had to stop
doing that because the losses got too high for the margins we made;
aside from the shipping costs, we had too high an incidence of fraud (on
a couple of occasions, we even got *bricks* back, not drives). Requiring
a credit card protected us from this to some extent, but not all
customers could afford to have their card charged and most of them were
upset by having to do so. I remember complaints from people who said
they got better service than that from companies like FWB (anyone
remember FWB?); what they didn't think of, or possibly want to admit, is
that FWB drives cost at least a third more than ours did. They could
afford to be more generous.
To summarize: Support ain't free; good troubleshooting support in
particular needs skilled techs, and even if you had unlimited money to
hire them you won't likely find them walking in off the street. Also,
when given the opportunity, a lot of users will try to use support for
things that aren't really the responsibility of the company providing
support, or even things that could be found in the documentation. These
calls will take skilled technician time, which is not infinite, away
from troubleshooting problems that are the company's responsibility.
Thus, screening calls really is in the interest of people who really
need support.
Travis Butler
tbutler mac.com
...Cats are the proof of a higher purpose to the universe.
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dr (apparently)
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Jun 16, 2005 10:46 pm
(#9 Total: 11)
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Re: Annoyance with support for Apple software
> Which is another serious part of the equation: the marketplace push to
> the lowest possible price has helped consumers in many ways, but in many
> cases it's also taken away the margin that made tech support possible,
> along with the service extras that customers wanted.
My wife works in a call center for a major airline. (One that's not in
or threatening to be in bankruptcy.) It's a thankless job. And at times
I just have to let her unload on me for a 1/2 hour or so when she gets
home. People lie to her all the time. And heaven forbid they take
responsibility for a bad choice THEY made. It just gets depressing.
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selfstro
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Jun 20, 2005 3:05 pm
(#10 Total: 11)
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Re: Annoyance with support for Apple software
Where did you get the idea that 90days of free phone support from Apple is included for software? Maybe it is for Final Cut Pro, but I can find nothing in the Tiger box that indicates that is the case. According to Apple's website: How much complimentary support do I get? Most Apple software and hardware products include unlimited complimentary support incidents within the first 90 days of product ownership. See the support-related materials included with your Apple product for more information. I'm an AASP, and have never heard of anyone getting free support for software unless they have AppleCare or Professional Video Support.
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LC Bob Williams / TriVectus
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Jul 4, 2005 7:18 am
(#11 Total: 11)
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Re: Annoyance with support for Apple software
On 6/20/05, selfstro <selfstro imagiq.com> wrote:
> Where did you get the idea that 90days of free phone support from Apple is
> included for software? Maybe it is for Final Cut Pro, but I can find nothing
> in the Tiger box that indicates that is the case.
>
> I'm an AASP, and have never heard of anyone getting free support for
> software unless they have AppleCare or Professional Video Support.
Then perhaps instead of relying on hearsay, you should read the
policies and procedures materials that Apple no doubt provides you,
because as an AASP, you should know that Apple most definitely
provides free support on OS X as well as most of its other software.
First of all, on the tech specs page of the Tiger section of Apple's site at:
< http://www.apple.com/macosx/techspecs/>
You'll find the following in a "Support" sidebar:
"Mac OS X comes with onscreen help, a user guide, online support and
90 days of free telephone support. "
Still not convinced? Then how about this.
I just looked at the materials that came with my copy of Tiger. One of
the bits is titled "AppleCare Service and Support Guide - Important
information for your new Apple product", and presents a friendly
explanation of your support options. Under "Need further assistance?",
it reads:
"AppleCare telephone support representatives can help you with
installation, launch, and basic troubleshooting. Just call the support
center number nearest you (the first 90 days are complimentary)."
There's a footnote indicating that the 90 days begins with date of
purchase, and the text goes on to say that a hardware serial number is
required.
On the next page, there's a graphical representation of the
complimentary support options and how paid AppleCare adds onto them.
This graphic also indicates 90 days of complimentary telephone
support.
It doesn't get much clearer than that.
--
Robert E. Williams, Jr.
E-mail: <bob trivectus.com>
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