Voice-enabled GPS navigation devices

On 5/20/05 9:28 AM, "publisher" <publisherrbdeveloper.com> wrote:

> It seems few to none of the GPS devices are Mac compatible, requiring a PC to
> upload new maps and firmware.

Two comments on this thread in general, the first referring to the above.

1. Most of us have a neighbor with a PC. (Actually, my nearest neighbor
has a Mac, but that doesn't change the fact that I can find a PC on my
block, among those I know well enough to ask.) (Of course, in sparsely
populated areas, "neighbor" may be a largish distance away.)

2. This story was on NPR several years ago, and was presented as true. I
had my doubts then, but...
It seems a tourist (from the US, of course) drove off a ferry landing
without the precaution of checking that a ferry was present. After the
investigation, the local police chief reported that the two in the car were
carefully navigating per the car's GPS, and tried to follow the line through
the ferry holding area and across the water. The chief closed with a remark
about "over-reliance on technology".

Whether the story is true or not, we do want to avoid getting trapped in
over-reliance on technology, lest we raise a generation of kids who can't
deal with a printed road map. Or deal with driving instructions as provided
in rural Maine: "You go down the road a piece (1) until you pass Smith's
Farm (2). Then turn left at the old oak tree. (3)"

1. A "piece" is anywhere from several yards to several miles.
2. Smith's Farm is still there, but it has been owened Jones family for 100
years and has been renamed.
3. The oak tree was cut down 50 years ago.

Thanks for the discussion about the Roadmate 700. When I win the lottery...

  --John (who has only used a GPS--mapless--at sea)

Of course there are the built-in systems. I have the Toyota-Lexus
system on my Prius. You can see details of its operation at
http://www.lexus.com/assets/navigation_systems/56K/lexus_nav_56k.htm
or
http://www.lexus.com/assets/navigation_systems/Broadband/lexus_nav.htm
(voice and animation added). The system primarily uses a combination
of GPS and inertial tracking when a GPS signal is unavailable.

The map and location databases are on a DVD . It's my understanding
that a DVD update will cost from $250 to $400 (which is higher than
the annual cost for routine maintenance of the mechanical components
of the car). I don't quite understand the economic model for pricing
the updates so high. It seems to me that if the price of an annual
update were about $50, owners would probably actually update every
year or two, while at the $250 level, many will never update.
Assuming marginal production costs are nominal, if more that 5 times
as many owners update at the lower level, the producers of the DVD
and licensees of the information will make more money by reducing the
price (and, of course, the car owners will have a more useful system).
--

Alan Forkosh <aforkoshmac.com> Voice:(510)655-4221
Oakland, CA

Unfortunately it's not just that Garmin doesn't support the Mac. They are actually hostile to Macs. I love their products and own several. But over the years I've written and talked to them and they are invariably uncooperative and curt verging on rude. They have no interest in finding a way for their products to work with Macs. They will not provide any information about it, nor share any experiences that anyone may have had trying to make the Mac work with their products, successful or unsuccessful. They are totally unsympathetic. They just repeat that they don't work with Macs. It's very disappointing. I have never found any company as hostile to the Mac.

On 24 May 2005, at 11:26 , KeithNealy wrote:
> Unfortunately it's not just that Garmin doesn't support the Mac.
> They are actually hostile to Macs. I love their products and own
> several. But over the years I've written and talked to them and
> they are invariably uncooperative and curt verging on rude. They
> have no interest in finding a way for their products to work with
> Macs. They will not provide any information about it, nor share any
> experiences that anyone may have had trying to make the Mac work
> with their products, successful or unsuccessful. They are totally
> unsympathetic. They just repeat that they don't work with Macs.
> It's very disappointing. I have never found any company as hostile
> to the Mac.

Of coruse this means that I, like many people, will never buy one of
their products. Not only that, I will happily dissuade anyone
looking into a GPS away from Garmin products. It's bad enough they
are not playing fair with compliance to GPS standards, but to not
only not be Mac compatible but actually Mac hostile means they'll
never get a penny of my money.

Having just returned from driving trip in a rental car, using my Garmin StreepPilot 2620, it was interesting to read your comments on your use of the cell phone GPS. I purchased the Garmin because of its portability, and a recommendation of a good friend. The unit attaches and locks to a small "bean bag" and has a large map display. It is full of wonderful features, and if the voice bothers you, it can be disabled. Like you, the voice is a must for me. The number of days of driving was eight, and we put about 1600 miles on the car, starting in Richmond VA and driving to the DC area and all over Virginia, terminating in Norfolk.

I am delighted with the Garmin and highly recommend it. I purchased it at Costco online for about half the retail price, after a $100 rebate from Garmin. That makes it about $200 less than the Magellan RoadMate model, which is supposed to have about the same capabilities. Incidentally, I live in New Mexico, and I never have had problems acquiring satellites. Additionally, the daytime background and nighttime background on the monitor are excellent.

Cheers, Bill Hutchin

--On May 23, 2005 9:40:32 AM -0700 Alan Forkosh <aforkoshmac.com> wrote:

> Of course there are the built-in systems. I have the Toyota-Lexus system
> on my Prius. You can see details of its operation at
> http://www.lexus.com/assets/navigation_systems/56K/lexus_nav_56k.htm or
> http://www.lexus.com/assets/navigation_systems/Broadband/lexus_nav.htm
> (voice and animation added). The system primarily uses a combination of
> GPS and inertial tracking when a GPS signal is unavailable.

Unfortunately having the dealer add this unit onto a Prius after market is
a bit steep. When I was looking to get my Prius in 2002 they didn't have
any models on the lot with GPS built-in (and yes, they had several 2002 and
2003 models on the lot, I bought my Prius before the backlog.) When I
inquired about having them add on the GPS unit, the cost came back > $1000.
I figured the cost would be less 'cause the LCD screen is already built-in.

I purchased a Garmin 2610 from Amazon just before Christmas 2004, as I'd be driving a car from Ohio to my home in California during the break and wanted not only the navigation features, but the points of interest database as well. I used two rebates to get the price down to a little over $500, then purchased a 2 GB compact flash card and loaded all of the Garmin map databases into it using a PC, something I'll not have to do again until I use the one free database upgrade, probably in December of 2005.

This was my first map enabled GPS, and it proved a revelation. My route took me west on I-70 to St. Louis, and was originally plotted by selecting the Home option in the routing dialog. Weather wasn't very good in the Rockies, so I added additional waypoints in Albuquerque and Tehachapi, CA to bend my path south into warmer climates, all without using a computer. At the end of the day, I'd pull over and call up fuel stops, motels, and restaurants from the database, using the GoTo function to guide me to those destinations. The voice prompting was great, especially when I was tired and it was dark, making it unnecessary to read road signs. It was also very helpful to look at the various data screens to see the number of miles to the next turn, to the end of the trip, time remaining, etc.

Good as it is, there are some problems. The screen is almost impossible to read in direct sunlight, and requires careful positioning or a sun visor in some situations. The unit also doesn't self adjust as you cross time zones, and setting the clock is something that requires reading the manual for instruction. The database is far from complete, and sometimes the address you need to enter isn't accepted because the unit isn't smart enough to interpolate between near by addresses it does know about. I've also run into some accuracy issues: several times I've been so intent on following the GPS output that I've driven right by my destination while waiting for the voice prompt that came a quarter mile too late. A final gripe is that as the unit switches between the two map databases, the amount of detail visible on the display can change radically. I sometimes find my position displayed in a blank yellow field because the map scale chosen by the unit isn't fine enough to trigger use of the more detailed map database.

Having said all that, though, the 2610 has been incredibly useful, and has taken a lot of the worry out of travelling to a strange city. It's taken me to places I'd otherwise never have attempted to find, and shown me streets and roads I'd never have thought about using on my own. It works reasonably well on my motorcycles where the voice prompt is plumbed into a StarCom mixer along with the iPod and Valentine radar detector. The unit is waterproof and rides in a RAM mount anchored to the handlebars.

Would I buy the same unit again? Probably, but I might be willing to trade the large and inexpensive compact flash card capability for a much brighter and bigger screen, and battery power. That would mean more interaction with the PC only support software, which even running native on an older Compac isn't anything to get excited about, but it does the job. I suspect that GPS technology will advance at a pace similar to digital cameras, and I'm on my third camera. Can't wait to see what new features and capabilities another couple of years will bring.

Scot

"except in bright sun, and wearing sunglasses to combat the bright sun made the screen only harder to read"

Click the Tool icon, then Color Mode, select Nightime. Now readable in sunny daytime.

At 14:24 -0700 18/5/05, David Fuller wrote:
> However they crippled the
>Quest by installing only about 120 MB of memory, and no provisions for
>slipping in a card. I'd be forced to upload maps from either a borrowed
>Windows machine or resort to using VirtualPC. For the price of the Quest I'd
>go with a 2620. This is surely a marketing decision, and one deletes it from
>my consideration. Too bad, since otherwise it looks pretty good.

The European version has 234 Mb available for map storage. I use mine for
driving and sailing as it is compatible with the Blue Chart maps and can
hold a set of UK, Germany and DK maps plus charts of the West Coast of
Scotland in less than 100Mb.

>And speaking of Mac, none of these manufacturers, as far as I can tell,
>offer any sort of Mac interface to their products. That points becomes
>fairly moot if you never have to upload maps. Of course, software upgrades
>would require a Windows box, but those are few and far between.

I borrow a PC for updating maps etc and doing the software updates, which
there have been 4 of since I bought it about three months ago.
Occaisionally after a race we dump track data to see what/where we actually
went.

I also have an in car Toyota GPS, and they definitely use different routing
alogorithms - the Quest does speed averages and heights which the onboard
system is lacking.

        f

In response to the recent posting about GPS devices, I have some observations some may find helpful.

I did quite a bit of research on GPS devices from several different manufacturers and also read many bulletin board postings about customer's experience with them before I finally decided on a Garmin 320c, even in favor of its more expensive, but in my opinion, less desirable upgrade, 330c.

I will make some general observations here and anyone can email me if they have any specific questions or want to know where I purchased mine...

The Garmin 320c has a bright, but not too bright display. Well thought out and user friendly with intuitive commands... for those who don't like to read directions ( myself included) this is an ideal unit. About the only thing to program is the place you want to go to. It provides two different views of the map, bird's eye and road views, has a feature ( which you can disable) which automatically changes the colors of the display at nighttime to a more pleasing and less distracting combination, provides voice commands well in advance of the turns coming, etc..

The higher priced 330c differs in a few ways. One is is more expensive, at least a hundred dollars but closer to two hundred at most sites. It offers as its upgrade, a hard drive that holds all the maps of the US and Canada already installed. This is the fundamental difference between it and the 320c. The 320c comes without a hard drive. Instead it comes with a SD memory card (128mgs) onto which you download from the Garmin website, the maps of the part of the US you are interested in. I was able to download most of the Northeastern part of the US onto the card before it was full. You can buy and install larger cards which will hold more of the US without re- downloading. You can even buy a card large enough to hold the entire US and Canada ( 2 gig card). The advantage I see is that a hard drive is more susceptible to damage from the bouncing of cars over rough roads where a card would not. A hard drive if it becomes defective or in need of repair, will have to be sent back to the company where if a memory card becomes defective, the user can easily replace it themselves. Lastly, and admittedly a small point but one that may be important for some people, is that the internal battery life of the 330c is half what the 320c is due to the higher demand of the hard drive. Most people will use the unit with it plugged into their car lighter so I am not sure why a battery, or the duration it will last would be particularly important but there may be some you want to use it while walking... hope this information is helpful.

Geoff Burnham

RE: Garmin Map Source products and Macs

I can confirm that it is possible to load Garmin's mapping products on to a Mac running VPC V.7 using a USB connection. I have it installed on a G4 iBook and a G5 iMac.

What is _not_ possible is to transfer the maps to your GPS even though the USB drivers can be downloaded to VPC.

Surely, Garmin, that final step can't be too hard to address?

I have been using GPS units for about 10 years and regard Garmin units as the Macs of the GPS community. Pity they aren't fully compatible :-(

We rented a Hertz car with their NeverLost system last week. It seemed
to be an OEM version of the Magellen RoadMate 700 which retails for
about $900.

Summary:
Overall the system worked less well than we expected and yet,
ironically, was more useful than we anticipated. We'll probably buy a
GPS nav this Christmas, but maybe not the RoadMate.


[Interestingly, we just use the Magellan RoadMate 700 for the trip to Boston Macworld, and although it worked OK, there were a number of things that bugged us, at least in comparison to the Garmin c330 we tested last. Full review coming... -Adam]


The Good:
Easy to use. User Interface was very good, screen visibility was very
good, and voice navigation instructions were fairly good.

Useful: It was certainly relaxing to forget about the problem of
finding our hotel in North Lake Tahoe and just enjoy the drive. It was
handy to be able to tell our 4 year old son exactly how many miles and
minutes were left before lunch. Hertz has a top level menu choice
"Return to Hertz rental location". Having struggled to return cars in
strange towns with looming flight times I can see that this alone would
be worth the rental cost to many business travelers.

Entertaining: It was fun to watch the map slide by and know the names
of all the side streets that were just out of sight of the road. Our
son enjoyed mimicking the voice instructions and adding a few of his
own. We had a good laugh when we took the scenic route down the east
side of the lake and heard the computer repeatedly advise us to "Take
the next safe and legal U-Turn" and then relent when we hit the break
even point where our route became the fastest route to continue. When
we did take a wrong turn there was always a discrete pause and then the
computer would simply say "Recalculating route" which was good for a
few laughs.

The Bad:
Mistaken route: NeverLost sent us off the main highway onto a two mile
side road, then back onto the highway at one point. We were near the
destination so we went for it, thinking the hotel was on the side road
but it was clearly a goof.

Unclear instructions: There were a couple of junctions where the
instructions weren't useful- once we were told to bear right at a
normal 4-way intersection that had nearly 90 degree angles (we guessed
incorrectly that the 5 degree off vertical was what it meant) and
another when it said to proceed ahead at a fork where the choice was
not clear because the street signs were down. Also we started it up a
couple of times in messy city environments (parking lots, construction
zones) and it simply advised "proceed to the designated route",
expecting us to read the on screen map and figure out how to get on
the recommended route. This seemed like it was giving up at the point
it should have been most useful- once you're on the highway you don't
really need the nav system, after all.

Mediocre mounting: Hertz had it mounted below and to the left of the
radio swung toward the driver. It did not have very good sideways play,
so the mount was inconvenient for the passenger who would be the
logical person to program the device in transit.

Missing features: At one point we came upon a five mile traffic jam on
the highway right before a destination. Seems like there should have
been a quick way to ask for side street routes to the train station,
but there was no obvious way to do that. There is an option in the
early stage of the menu for "Least use of Highways" but we couldn't
figure out if a) this would do what we wanted and b) how to switch to
this without reprogramming form the start including the destination
address.

The Future:
NeverLost had a Yellow Pages that we did not use. But you can easily
see a future where the subscription fee for map updates is waived if
you let the device tell you every time you pass a McDonald's or that
directs you to the nearest Shell station whenever you get down to
1/10th of a tank of gas. Eventually GPS nav is bound to get integrated
with traffic data so that you can get automatically routed around tie
ups. And it'll probably get linked into your radio so that the button
preselects get switched to stations it thinks you'll like (or that
sponsors have payed to promote) when you get out of range of your
current stations, that is, unless satellite radio moots this need.

I'm looking into getting a auto nav unit within the next few days and have narrowed it down to the Garmin c330 and the TomTom 300. Reviews on both units have been very positive but I'm leaning toward the TomTom. The only thing I'm concerned with is it's TeleAtlas map database. I'm mostly interested with the US Eastern states. Anyone have any opinions? It's funny that TomTom's web site points to the 2005 Telematics Awards http://www.telematicsdetroit.com/awards/ as best navigation unit, but the best map database was awarded to NavTeq

This might make the difference for anyone considering one of the TomTom units -- it looks like they're now distributing Mac compatible utility software:

http://support-us.tomtom.com/cgi-bin/us.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=2059

http://www.tomtom.com/updates/ttgoupd5201.dmg

(their support site isn't particularly Safari friendly)

I use the GPS built-in to my Acura and don't have a TomTom, but it seems from playing around for a bit that the Mac software will let you upgrade the unit, do backup/restore operations, change the splash screen, or install optional software components.

Paul Scandariato

Paul's post concerns only a firmware update, for loading maps to a TomTom GPS you still need a PC.

TomTom has no PC (Mac) based software to plan/manage GPS data.

On 8/9/05 9:44 AM, "gpsH" wrote:
> Paul's post concerns only a firmware update, for loading maps to a TomTom GPS
> you still need a PC.

There are a couple third-party solutions:

TamTam
<http://www.equinux.com/us/products/moresw/tamtam.html>

MacTomTom
<http://www.lobotomo.com/products/MacTomTom/index.html>

Quoting gpsH <iam_anon_ymoushotmail.com>:

> Paul's post concerns only a firmware update, for loading maps to a
> TomTom GPS you still need a PC.
>
> TomTom has no PC (Mac) based software to plan/manage GPS data.


Not sure if this will help anyone, but Equinux has a product called
TamTam that
is supposed to support the TomTom GO, but not any of the newer TomTom models.

<http://www.equinux.com/us/products/moresw/tamtam.html>

I haven't used it, but I have used their VPN Tracker product which is well
written and never crashed on me.

Kevin

Quoting gpsH <iam_anon_ymoushotmail.com>:


> Paul's post concerns only a firmware update, for loading maps to a
> TomTom GPS you still need a PC.
>
> TomTom has no PC (Mac) based software to plan/manage GPS data.

Actually, as of 2 weeks ago, TomTom has a Mac backup/setup
application that works for the Navigator (palm software) and the Go.

I have the Navigator and have had a few issues with the software, but
it does work and they are committed to it.

<http://www.tomtom.com/3243>

Steve Cochran

--- begin forwarded text

From: James Weil
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:26:53 -0700

I purchased and used a Roadmate 760 - the one you mentioned that was
coming out - for our (my wife and I) 3 week vacation trip from the SF
Bay Area to Bozeman MT and back via Astoria, OR. We just got back a
week ago. It was generally very good although it did have a few
errors which the company blamed on NavTeq, the supplier of the maps
for the database. According to them, most GPS units use NavTeq data
so they most likely all have the same errors. The new features you
mentioned were awesome. The unit took us from Richland WA, to
Astoria, via downtown Portland, OR, during the early rush-hour. The
freeways in Portland can be confusing nightmare, especially in heavy
traffic, when you have absolutely no idea where you are going.
However the Roadmate 760 took us through it all without a single
glitch, other then the one I made when I accidently took a wrong exit
by accidently thinking ahead of the Roadmate. However it
automatically corrected for it and got us back on the right road via
a simple (legal) U-Turn, a correction I would have never dreamed of
or realized with a standard road map. It also detoured us around a
construction zone on the the freeway via side streets and saved us a
huge amount of time. This allowed us to visit our favorite smoked
seafood store, Josephsons Seafood (http://www.josephsons.com), before
it closed that evening, and snack on a cup of their famous chowder.
They have some of the best smoked salmon and lox available anywhere.

What surprised me was that the unit was sensitive enough to know what
lane we were in on the freeways and told us to move over if we were
in the wrong one.

It also saved us a bundle on motel bills. By knowing what motels were
in the area we were in, along with their phone numbers, we could
check them out for the best rates and accommodations and pick the
best value. It also allowed us to find some good places to eat in
areas we knew nothing about, without having to search for a phone
book or Internet connection. All of this information came from its
built-in points of interest (POI).

We ran into a similar gas problem as you did on the route from
Bozeman, MT to Richland WA. Like your experience it lead us to the
closest gas station, with was a bit off the freeway we were on,
saving us further concern. Now if only it had a way to tell us what
the station was charging for the stuff, so we could also pick the
best price as well. Being very isolated and the only station in town,
they were charging $3.25 a gallon for regular. So we chose to buy
only enough to safely get us to the next significant city.

As I mentioned the POI database was not error free. On one occasion,
while in a small strange city in the middle of the Nevada desert, it
thought that there were two separate locations for the Flying Pig
BBQ. We tried the first location, which was where it was supposed to
be. After a pleasant dinner we asked about the "other" location.
There was no "other" location. Just for fun we navigated to the
"other" location after dinner. It was located under a freeway
overpass on a desolate road, just outside of town in an undeveloped
industrial zone. The only thing around for a mile, other than the the
overpass, was sagebrush. So much for the second location as described
in the GPS unit.

Again, on the navigation side, we ran into stop & go traffic in Reno,
due to construction. With a 2 presses of the Roadmate 760 screen, it
routed us to side streets, around the tie-up. It made us feel like
locals, even though we were in an unfamiliar city.

One major disappointment with the unit. It doesn't allow support via
Macintosh. You can only do updates and enter Points of Interest (in
groups) via Windows. So I must rely on Virtual PC to accomplish these
tasks.

Other than that, we are very happy with the unit and feel it was a
worthwhile investment.

<http://db.tidbits.com/getbits.acgi?tbart=08203>

--- end forwarded text

> From: James Weil
> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:26:53 -0700
>
> I purchased and used a Roadmate 760 - the one you mentioned that was
> coming out - for our (my wife and I) 3 week vacation trip from the SF
> Bay Area to Bozeman MT and back via Astoria, OR. We just got back a
> week ago. It was generally very good although it did have a few
> errors which the company blamed on NavTeq, the supplier of the maps
> for the database. According to them, most GPS units use NavTeq data
> so they most likely all have the same errors.

Google Maps uses NavTeq so you might compare your errors to them and
see if they
are the same.

<http://maps.google.com/>

Kevin