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Domain Name Hoarding JayMcB74 - 08:31am Mar 9, 2005 PSTWhen we hear about domain name hoarding in the news it's usually about Network Solutions holding back expired domains but what about companies and individuals sitting on domains in hopes to sell them for profit? This raises the question of whether domain names are assets. Should they be saved like real estate to add to the value of a company or individual's portfolio? Should parties be allowed so save them for the possible sale or use of them in the future? What laws and governing committees should be in place to regulate fair-use? These questions came to mind as I was trying to find a good domain name to start a new e-commerce site. I found that many generic words have been gobbled up by many different kinds of parties for the sole purpose of resale. Now it's very easy to associate domain names as the real estate of the virtual world so I'll be looking at it from this point of view. When you buy a domain name you have to pay 25¢ to internic and 6 to 8 dollars to a registry which can be looked at as tax and filing fees, I remember this being much higher back in the day. When you buy a property there are many regulations which you have to abide by. You can only build an appropriate building for your zone, i.e. industrial, commercial and residential, which is what .com, .net, .edu, etc... are supposed to be (this mostly has been broken and abused but that's a different rant). You have to abide to other stipulations such as a time limit to build, home owners associations and building regulations. Now lets look at my recent efforts, the state of things and what effects it has on our world in general. I want to start an e-commerce site to sell books and related media. Looking for a good domain name has proven not to be easy... 1. There is no way that I've found to look at available names in a catalogue or dictionary like listing with a search for acronyms and or made up words and on the opposite side there is noway to look at names that have been already taken in a similar catalogue like listing. Now you could argue that such a listing would be too large to browse or manage but that's a matter of opinion and effort. 2. A whois search doesn't always produce a result with whois.internic.net and I'm forced to use other systems such as whois.networksolutions.com and whois.apnic.net. This maybe a mere inconvenience when looking for the owner of a domain for possible purchase but it shows lack of structure and or poor implementation. 3. A three letter minimum. Which I don't understand why I'm being limited to three letters when clearly there are sites with two letters such as Barnes & Noble (bn.com) and Brown & Williamson (bw.com). 4. Many very useful and meaningful names are already taken, some being used and some not. This brings us to my original rant of name hoarding. Lets look at some of the names I came up with and what is being done with them. I literally have gone through over 50 names in my search but I'm just going to touch on a few. 1. The obvious books.com. This domain is a pointer to Barnes & Noble which is clearly a useful name for B & N to have but it raises a couple questions. How many pointers should a site be allowed to have? Should the domains that act as pointers be limited to only names that are relevant to the topic or products being sold? For example sale.com points to a teddy bear site and culture.com points to a cinema site. Yes, the teddy bears are for sale and it can be argued that movies are an art. I'm just trying to point out that teddy bears are not a variety of reduced priced products or a marketing team to help you sell and cinema is not about the cultivation of horticulture or the development of the underground drug culture. 2. Read.com brings you to a site to help you learn how to read. A great and proper use of this name. 3. Peruse.com, this domain has been parked by godaddy.com for redshift.com, an isp in California. So the questions here is why and for how long? This domain was purchased in 1997. Has it been parked since 97? Did the site go under and we're just waiting it to expire or was it recently purchased for a new site? There is noway to know if it's for sale or in development with out contacting the owner. Again shows lack or poor implementation of structure and standards. 4. Peruse.net, this domain brings you to pool.com which is a site who's sole purpose is to sell and broker domain names. It's a side product of our current system and should be expected to see agents selling real estate. 5. Bookworm.com, this name brings you again to godaddy.com but this time it shows that it is for sale and who to contact. The problem I have with this is after contacting the individual I'm hit with a price of, no joke, $150,000. This clearly is the ultimate goal of name hoarders. By forcing you to pay this extra fee for a quality name they don't see the damage cause by their greed. Their fee will go into a private pocket and benefit no one but them. So by raising these prices it does two things. First it raises the cost of startup causing you to have less money for hiring employees, inventory and marketing. Which leads to the second, limiting new startups to people and companies with deep pockets causing further separation of the ever increasing gap between the rich and poor in this country, no I'm not stretching here. Now if I was to use an alternate domain such as bookworm.biz this further increases my marketing cost by educating the laymen that .biz should be used to get to my site, it increases the value of my neighbor in the .com domain and makes me vulnerable to the original .com name being used. Now you could say I can sue the new user of the domain but here we go again with increased cost cause by said litigation, it could easily take years while I'm muscled out of my market and if it's the hoarder using it they can clam that they were here first and I'm just SOL. Now I'm sure some of you are saying that I should just register a .biz or .us domain and some are saying I should just show some creativity and register a custom name such as jaysbookstore.com. Those of you with such thoughts are missing part of the bigger picture. It's just a matter of time before the hoarders grab up the same names in .biz and .us, which ever becomes more popular first, and the shorter and more generic the domain name the better it is for marketing and customer memory. For those of us that have been involved with the internet since the early days we are used to using different domains for their respective type of organizations such as .com being used for businesses, .net for networks, .org for organizations, .gov for government, .edu for schools and so on. But the new users of the internet relate .com to everything which raises the value of the .com domain and causes an uphill marketing battle for those of use that are forced to use different domains such as .biz. So to end this never ending rant I'd like to just like to say we need better standards and enforcement of our online real estate. We need time limits to build, enforcement of zoning laws and a more efficient structure of our registration system.
Mark as Read
JolinWarren (apparently)
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Mar 13, 2005 11:50 pm
(#13 Total: 32)
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Re: Domain Name Hoarding
At 12:06 on 11-3-05, George Wade wrote:
> So I queried a nice looking domain name that I didn't actually want:
> sure enough it was registered by the next day. I immediately queried
> and registered the name I did want with no trouble. Interesting!
This is very interesting! When I registered my domain name,
'oakandapple.com' was also available (but I wasn't interested -- I
don't use this for business). However, soon after I registered my
domain name (I can't remember how soon) 'oakandapple.com' was bought
by someone who pointed it to a porn site! I'm not sure what
'oakandapple' has to do with porn, and I can't remember the name of
the site, but I wonder if this was speculation on the buyer's part.
Maybe they assumed my .org domain was going to be used to attract
lots of visitors and some of them would mistype and go to the .com
site. If so, they must have been disappointed -- 'oakandapple.com' is
once again available. :-)
_________________
=> Jolin Warren, Edinburgh, Scotland
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tbutler (apparently)
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Mar 13, 2005 11:50 pm
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Re: Domain Name Hoarding
On 3/11/05 at 11:57 AM, civitan  jeffporten.com (Jeff Porten) wrote:
> On Mar 9, 2005, at 10:31 AM, JayMcB74 wrote:
>
> > Should parties be allowed so save them for the possible sale or use
> > of them in the future? What laws and governing committees should be
> > in place to regulate fair-use?
>
> Let me rephrase your question: "Who would you like to empower to take
> away your domains from you because at their discretion they've
> decided that you don't deserve it any more?"
On a gut level, I find most 'pure' speculation offensive, and domain
name squatting particularly so; it takes something that has inherent
value only when it's used, and puts roadblocks in the way of using it by
charging a toll to anyone who actually tries to put it to use, when the
squatter has no intent of actually using it themselves.
However, I have trouble coming up with a way to stop it, because the
above is a very good point - when there are conflicting uses for a name,
is there any criteria you'd trust for determining who has a more valid
'right' to the name? (How many people would have a good claim on
'johnsmith.com', to name one example?) Anything I can think of off the
top of my head is going to involve lots of judgement calls if it's going
to be at all fair, which leads to the question of finding an
international authority that you'd trust to make those judgement calls.
The only criteria I can think of that has manageable judgement calls
would be usage - if a domain name isn't put into use after a reasonable
amount of time, that might be fair grounds for giving it to someone
else. But even there you get judgement calls - is registering multiple
names and pointing them to one website 'legitimate use'? After all,
that's exactly what most squatters are doing, from a technical
standpoint... On the other hand, it's certainly justifiable to register
close alternates to your name (like barnesnoble.com and
barnesandnoble.com), so where do you draw the line? Again, not something
you can just hand over to a set of automatic 'rules'.
> > These questions came to mind as I was trying to find a good domain
> > name to start a new e-commerce site. I found that many generic
> > words have been gobbled up by many different kinds of parties for
> > the sole purpose of resale.
>
> Which would be reason #328 to not use generic words as the name of
> your business. I note that Yahoo and Google were not synonymous with
> the word "search" ten years ago.
That's a bit of a high hurdle for an example, as I doubt many businesses
have the potential to become the next Google. :) But yeah, I agree with
this and the other people who have chimed in with similar sentiments,
it's a lot better to give meaning to a relatively unique name yourself,
instead of trying to hijack a generic term for your own use.
> > Should the domains that act as pointers be limited to only names
> > that are relevant to the topic or products being sold?
>
> Again, who decides? For example, I note that your address is
> "junkmailaccnt" at Yahoo. I could easily extend your argument to
> say, "that's far too generic, he's not allowed to have that."
Amen. There is trademark law, and case law that governs things like two
brick-and-mortar businesses trying to use the same name, but from my
limited knowledge these were mainly designed to work in a local scope;
in our customer list we have many 'A-1's, several 'ABC's, more than one
'All Seasons' and 'American'... the times I can think of where these
laws get applied to a larger scope, you end up with messes like a man
named McDonald getting sued by McDonald's over his business name.
> What you're ignoring is that any major domain brokerage has spent
> money on maintaining 10,000 domains in the hopes of selling a few.
> They can't know which ones will have value, so they need to do volume
> to stay in business. You don't care until they happen to have a
> domain you want, and then you see the single domain and wonder, "how
> could that be worth $150K?" Well, if it's not worth it to you, it
> might be worth it to the next guy.
While I had a lot of problems with the original post and generally agree
with this post, this argument gets no sympathy from me whatsoever. IMHO,
the only 'domain brokerages' should be the registrars themselves; if a
company buys '10,000 domains' just to try to make money by extorting
from people who want to actually put a domain to use, they deserve to
pay maintenance fees on all of them, and I hope that puts them out of
business.
A broker normally performs the function of a middleman, matching people
who want to buy up with people who want to sell. However, a good
registrar is already set up to do all of this themselves, and in fact is
better-positioned for things like resolving conflicts between two people
who want the same domain; I don't see any function for someone who buys
up 10,000 domains in the hope that someone will pay them to use one,
other than 'parasite'.
Travis Butler
tbutler  mac.com
...Cats are the proof of a higher purpose to the universe.
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Jeff Porten (apparently)
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Mar 13, 2005 11:50 pm
(#15 Total: 32)
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Re: Domain Name Hoarding
On Mar 11, 2005, at 6:28 PM, Travis Butler wrote:
> On a gut level, I find most 'pure' speculation offensive, and domain
> name squatting particularly so
On a gut level, I agree with you. But the problem is that I start
disagreeing with you in the very next sentence -- which is where I
start to think that there's absolutely no way to restrain this kind of
trade that doesn't have nasty follow-on effects.
> it takes something that has inherent value only when it's used, and
> puts roadblocks in the way of using it by charging a toll to anyone
> who actually tries to put it to use, when the squatter has no intent
> of actually using it themselves.
Disagreement #1: define use. If I owned "jeffporten.net", I'd be
"using" it by preventing other people from trying to look like me. But
there are other people on this planet with that name. At what point
does their right to own an eponymous domain trump my right to my own
eponymous bit of turf?
> Anything I can think of off the top of my head is going to involve
> lots of judgement calls if it's going to be at all fair, which leads
> to the question of finding an international authority that you'd trust
> to make those judgement calls.
Or you just leave it up to the marketplace. If you want a domain, you
can have it, for the right price.
> The only criteria I can think of that has manageable judgement calls
> would be usage
I argue that allowing a domain to lay fallow is perfectly justifiable
use of that domain. You're coming close to a right-to-life argument
that says that a domain has the right to have bits blowing through it.
It doesn't, any more than a particular IP number does.
When you say that there's a public good to have a domain in use, you're
inherently incorporating market forces into your assessment. Going
back to the original rant, it's a MARKETING decision to want
bookworm.com versus sesquipedalianofferings.com. You can have the
latter for eight bucks. If you think you deserve the former for eight
bucks, then someone has to arbitrate whether your INTENDED use (since
your website is still vaporware at this point) is better than someone
else's.
Me, I don't trust people to do that. And I don't want to lose my
domain to another Jeff Porten because I haven't updated my blog in two
years. Nor do you.
> if a domain name isn't put into use after a reasonable amount of time
ALL domains are being put into use. Some uses are just turning off the
lights and locking the door.
> it's a lot better to give meaning to a relatively unique name
> yourself, instead of trying to hijack a generic term for your own use.
It's also important for a host of other business reasons that far
predate the Internet. Quick, I'm about to sneeze. Give me a Kleenex.
Then I'll finish my Xeroxing and have a Coke.
>> any major domain brokerage has spent money on maintaining 10,000
>> domains in the hopes of selling a few
> While I had a lot of problems with the original post and generally
> agree with this post, this argument gets no sympathy from me
> whatsoever.
I didn't raise it for your sympathy, since the whole point of my
argument is to say that sympathy should be irrelevant. I raised it to
point out that the domain brokerages are in business and have costs of
doing that business. Companies that hoarded the right domains are
doing well; companies that did not went on to fail -- and at such time,
presumably those domains were released back into the market.
The point is, if you want a domain that's being hoarded, when you buy
it you're paying the costs of the 99.9% of the broker's domains that
will never move, plus profit. The reason I have no sympathy for the
sympathetic argument is that no one forces you to do business with
those people.
> I don't see any function for someone who buys up 10,000 domains in the
> hope that someone will pay them to use one, other than 'parasite'.
Presuming that they're paying around $70,000 to a registrar annually
for those names, and that some of that money goes into maintaining the
DNS system we rely upon, I have trouble seeing what's parasitical about
this.
Let's put it this way: I own a few domains I haven't used yet. If you
approach me asking to buy one, the asking price will NOT be what I paid
for it, but what I think is the most amount of money you'd be willing
to pay. You'll get the same response if you want to buy one of my
comic books, or anything else I own that you can't easily find
elsewhere. That's not parasitical, that's supply and demand. The
problem isn't with the hoarder, it's with the buyer who is forgetting
the lesson of the 17th-century Dutch tulip. At the end of the day,
it's just a flower.
Best,
Jeff
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Nik (apparently)
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Mar 13, 2005 11:50 pm
(#16 Total: 32)
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Re: Domain Name Hoarding
On Mar 11, 2005, at 1:06 PM, George Wade wrote:
> Was somebody sniffing
> queries and speculating on me wanting to register badly enough to want
> to purchase?
Some of the shadier domain registrars have been doing this for years.
One site even went so far as to immediately purchase any domain that a
user searched for in their "free" web-based WHOIS search tool. They'd
then offer to sell it to you for a fairly exorbitant fee.
I had a good time on their site making up a variety of nonsense domain
names and watching them spend some $20/each as I mashed the keyboard
and pressed "search."
--Nik
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kevinv (apparently)
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Mar 13, 2005 11:58 pm
(#17 Total: 32)
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Re: Domain Name Hoarding
Quoting Mike Cohen <tidbits  mcdevzone.com>:
> I just went through a nightmare of trying to obtain an expired domain.
>
> My friend owns studio-dogo.com, although he isn't the registrant. The
> web developer who created his site went out of business and they owned
> the domain. Unfortunately they no longer have access to transfer it to
> me and they don't have a credit card to renew it. Since it's locked, I
> wasn't able to transfer it, so he's now locked out of his own domain.
When registering a domain it's important to make sure your name is one
of the 3
contact points on the domain, probably as the administrative or billing
contact. Each name can be different and it distributes responsiblity in case
something happens to the primary contact.
Personally I can't imagine why a web developer would need complete control of
the registration info, that makes me paranoid. Maybe as the technical contact
to be able to change DNS records, but not as the sole contact for a domain.
I also avoid doing registration, dns and hosting through the same
company. Too
many horror stories about domains held hostage by a hosting company when they
go to move the domain. I'll usually do the registration and dns through one
company (easydns.com where uptime and reliablity is important, and
active-domain.com when low cost is important -- although I've never had an
uptime issue with them.)
Kevin
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kevinv (apparently)
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Mar 13, 2005 11:58 pm
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Re: Domain Name Hoarding
Quoting Jeff Porten <civitan  jeffporten.com>:
>> 3. A three letter minimum. Which I don't understand why I'm being
>> limited to three letters when clearly there are sites with two
>> letters such as Barnes & Noble (bn.com) and Brown & Williamson
>> (bw.com).
>
> All of the one letter and two letter domains have LONG since been taken.
This doesn't explain the restriction on entering a 2 letter name. The
registrars I tried wouldn't even let me enter a 2 digit name -- the error was
that 3 letter names are minimum not that the domain was taken. What happens
when a 2 letter domain name expires? Can no one get it because they
can't enter
the name in the registrar's form?
Spot checking some of the 2-letter domain names not listed here:
< http://blog.citycynic.com/2letter.php>
many are simply those link/ad sites.
There are only 3 one letter domains in use, at least in .com.
< http://www.q.com/> (Qwest)
< http://www.x.com/> (PayPal, not sure if they always had it)
< http://www.z.ocom/> (Nissan, I bet they paid a LOT for that one)
They were originally purchased before naming rules had been set.
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Lewis Butler (apparently)
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Mar 13, 2005 11:58 pm
(#19 Total: 32)
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Re: Domain Name Hoarding
On 11 Mar 2005, at 12:40 :17, kevin  vanhaaren.net wrote:
> BTW, all one letter domain names (at least the ascii ones, not sure
> about
> others) are reserved, and have been since the domain system was
> developed. I
> think Internic or ICANN owns them.
No, this is not right. x.com was a online bank that was bought by
paypal, and x.com is still owned by paypal:
Domain Name: X.COM
Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
PayPal, Inc. (PI2724-ORG) hostmaster  PAYPAL.COM
BTW, the command-line whois comamnd in OS X queries the right registrar
for domain info, so no need to worry about where a domain is
registered.
> I also think the era of generic names being valuable is ending.
If it ever existed. If you want a lot of traffic, you have to build a
brand. Amazon.com has nothing to do with books (the name that is) but
that's where amazon started, selling books.
> If I want to buy books, I don't type in "books.com"
I think the 'value' in those generic names is catching people who
accidently type in the address bar instead f the search field.
--
May you live in interesting times
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kevinv (apparently)
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Mar 13, 2005 11:58 pm
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Re: Domain Name Hoarding
--On March 12, 2005 3:17:00 PM -0700 Google Kreme <gkreme  gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11 Mar 2005, at 12:40 :17, kevin  vanhaaren.net wrote:
>> BTW, all one letter domain names (at least the ascii ones, not sure
>> about
>> others) are reserved, and have been since the domain system was
>> developed. I
>> think Internic or ICANN owns them.
>
> No, this is not right. x.com was a online bank that was bought by
> paypal, and x.com is still owned by paypal:
Yeah, I caught that in another message. There are only 3 one letter
domains registered. The rest are reserved.
> BTW, the command-line whois comamnd in OS X queries the right registrar
> for domain info, so no need to worry about where a domain is registered.
I use this all the time on my Linux box and then forget about it in OS X.
This is a great tool. Even better than whois.net. It also does IP net
lookups so you can report abuse's from particular IP addresses.
Kevin
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edward (apparently)
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Mar 13, 2005 11:58 pm
(#21 Total: 32)
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Re: Domain Name Hoarding
At 07:31 AM 03/09/2005 -0800, JayMcB74 wrote:
>1. There is no way that I've found to look at available names in a
>catalogue or dictionary like listing with a search for acronyms and or
>made up words and on the opposite side there is noway to look at names
>that have been already taken in a similar catalogue like listing.
Take a look at http://www.namedroppers.com. A long time ago I saw another
site that did a much better job of searching for available names, but I
can't remember where it was. Namedroppers seems to only combine full words
exactly as you enter them; the one I remember did some stemming and other
more creative manipulation to try to come up with an available name.
I have some doubts that this is better than straightforward searching.
(Don't have much experience, as I got paleo.org just before the real boom.)
It probably depends on the skills of the desiring registrant at generating
potential names vs the quality of the names generated by the domain name
search engine.
But there are some tools, probably a lot more than I've run across.
Edward
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Jeff Porten (apparently)
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Mar 13, 2005 11:58 pm
(#22 Total: 32)
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Re: Domain Name Hoarding
On Mar 12, 2005, at 4:27 PM, kevin  vanhaaren.net wrote:
> This doesn't explain the restriction on entering a 2 letter name.
Right. I was being flippant, and it's possibly NOT true that all of
the short names have been taken in every TLD if you include the country
domains. Honestly, I don't know the answer to this.
> < http://www.x.com/> (PayPal, not sure if they always had it)
IIRC, there was briefly a competitor in this space with that domain;
PayPal bought them and took along the domain as a redirect for existing
customers.
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JolinWarren (apparently)
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Mar 14, 2005 6:07 am
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Re: Domain Name Hoarding
At 11:57 on 11-3-05, Jeff Porten wrote:
> Your rant can be answered by a supragovernmental structure that can
> dispense and withdraw domains at their whim,
You mean something like ICANN?!
_________________
=> Jolin Warren, Edinburgh, Scotland
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jwblist (apparently)
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Mar 14, 2005 2:00 pm
(#24 Total: 32)
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Re: Domain Name Hoarding
On 3/13/2005 22:58, "kevin  vanhaaren.net" <kevin  vanhaaren.net> wrote:
> Personally I can't imagine why a web developer would need complete control of
> the registration info, that makes me paranoid. Maybe as the technical contact
> to be able to change DNS records, but not as the sole contact for a domain.
They do it--among other reasons--so that they can hold the domain hostage
for alleged nonpayment or alleged contract termination provision violation
if you try to move it.
Another, less sinister reason is for convenience. It took us months a
while back to get all the domain admins to approve the change we made to the
provider which does our secondary name service for us (our own servers
aren't geographically diverse enough for contentment...one set each side of
Puget Sound).
Be the admin contact (and keep the address and phone of that contact
working...there are various hoops to jump through if the registrar can't
reach the admin contact and a change must be made). In an organization, the
contacts should be role addresses, not individuals (what? We can't make this
change because Joe left last year?).
--John
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Jeff Porten (apparently)
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Mar 14, 2005 2:00 pm
(#25 Total: 32)
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Re: Domain Name Hoarding
On Mar 14, 2005, at 1:58 AM, kevin  vanhaaren.net wrote:
> Personally I can't imagine why a web developer would need complete
> control of
> the registration info, that makes me paranoid. Maybe as the technical
> contact
> to be able to change DNS records, but not as the sole contact for a
> domain.
I've run into this a number of times -- in my opinion, when a developer
lists himself as the admin contact, it's due to either malfeasance or
incompetence. I can do whatever I need to do for my client as the
technical contact -- and the CLIENT is always the admin and billing
contact.
Best,
Jeff
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Jeff Porten (apparently)
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Mar 14, 2005 2:02 pm
(#26 Total: 32)
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Re: Domain Name Hoarding
On Mar 14, 2005, at 8:07 AM, Jolin M Warren wrote:
> At 11:57 on 11-3-05, Jeff Porten wrote:
>> Your rant can be answered by a supragovernmental structure that can
>> dispense and withdraw domains at their whim,
>
> You mean something like ICANN?!
This would be WHY I'm dead-set on free market and technocratic
governance of the Internet. ICANN takes the worst parts of the United
Nations and combines it with the worst parts of American
government-by-political-donation. Which is a shame, because ICANN is
really where I was hoping to see an enlightened supranational body.
But I was more naive back then.
Best,
Jeff
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Lewis Butler (apparently)
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Mar 14, 2005 2:02 pm
(#27 Total: 32)
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Re: Domain Name Hoarding
On 13 Mar 2005, at 23:58 :12, kevin  vanhaaren.net wrote:
> When registering a domain it's important to make sure your name is one
> of the 3 contact points on the domain, probably as the administrative
> or billing
> contact.
The admin contact should be whoever is in charge of setting up the DNS
files on your name server (your ISP).
> Personally I can't imagine why a web developer would need complete
> control of
> the registration info, that makes me paranoid. Maybe as the technical
> contact
> to be able to change DNS records, but not as the sole contact for a
> domain.
Not only does a WebDeveloper not need control of the registration info,
they should not be listed AT ALL in your whois. There is _NO_ reason
they would need to be, and the contacts listed in the whois are the
people who can exert control over the domain. Why would you list the
web guy?
The most important thing is to ensure that you are listed as the owner
of the domain and that the email address for contact is one you will
have in 5 years (so, your ISP provided email address is usually a poor
choice).
> I also avoid doing registration, dns and hosting through the same
> company.
No joke.
> Too many horror stories about domains held hostage by a hosting
> company when they
> go to move the domain.
I love how all the registrars now are 'locking' every domain, making it
impossible to move a domain without knowing how the domain was
originally registered (which, honestly, most domain owners don't know).
I have one woman who is trying to move her domain off enom and even
though she is the owner she cannot get enom to reply to her emails.
I've only dealt with enom once before, and they didn't answer my emails
either.
--
And I just don't care what happens next / looks like freedom but it
feels like death / it's something in between, I guess
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rdh (apparently)
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Mar 16, 2005 6:04 am
(#28 Total: 32)
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Re: Domain Name Hoarding
On Mar 14, 2005, at 4:00 PM, Jeff Porten wrote:
> On Mar 14, 2005, at 1:58 AM, kevin  vanhaaren.net wrote:
>
>> Personally I can't imagine why a web developer would need complete
>> control of
>> the registration info, that makes me paranoid. Maybe as the technical
>> contact
>> to be able to change DNS records, but not as the sole contact for a
>> domain.
>
> I've run into this a number of times -- in my opinion, when a developer
> lists himself as the admin contact, it's due to either malfeasance or
> incompetence. I can do whatever I need to do for my client as the
> technical contact -- and the CLIENT is always the admin and billing
> contact.
With my clients, (mostly small owner operated businesses), I list them
as the billing contact, and domain owner, myself as admin contact, and
the hosting company as tech. The main reason I do this is that I've
saved a few domains for clients who did not pay attention to the
renewal notices, and most of them are completely incapable of making
any changes to anything on their domains, and like it that way (based
on my attempts to educate them).
In the corporate world, things may be different...
Roger Henriques
rdh at rhen dot com
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jwblist (apparently)
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Mar 16, 2005 6:04 am
(#29 Total: 32)
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Re: Domain Name Hoarding
On 3/14/2005 13:02, "Google Kreme" <gkreme  gmail.com> wrote:
> Not only does a WebDeveloper not need control of the registration info,
> they should not be listed AT ALL in your whois. There is _NO_ reason
> they would need to be, and the contacts listed in the whois are the
> people who can exert control over the domain. Why would you list the
> web guy?
If "the web guy" handles your domain for you, from registration through DNS
and mail and web setup, "he" probably should be listed. I still would
prefer that the owner be the admin contact, to whom the registrar turns for
approval of changes that need approving. Despite the hassles that result
when the client ignores the approval request, the email asking them not to
ignore the approval request, and the several phone calls making the same
request.
--John
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Jeff Porten (apparently)
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Mar 16, 2005 6:04 am
(#30 Total: 32)
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| Posts: 342 |
Re: Domain Name Hoarding
On Mar 14, 2005, at 4:00 PM, John W. Baxter wrote:
> They do it--among other reasons--so that they can hold the domain
> hostage
> for alleged nonpayment or alleged contract termination provision
> violation
> if you try to move it.
Chalk this up as malfeasant behavior in my book. The contract
provisions don't include "and I'm going to hold all of your work
hostage at my whim". There are other, more honorable ways, of getting
your clients to pay up. I prefer necromancy.
> Another, less sinister reason is for convenience. It took us months a
> while back to get all the domain admins to approve the change we made
> to the
> provider which does our secondary name service for us
Maybe I'm a few steps out of the loop, but in all of the domains I've
managed for my clients, I was the technical contact and I had the
administrative password. This gives my clients the (theoretical)
capability to lock me out by changing the password, but also allows me
to do my work for them without their continuing permission. Am I
missing something here?
On Mar 14, 2005, at 4:02 PM, Google Kreme wrote:
> Not only does a WebDeveloper not need control of the registration info,
> they should not be listed AT ALL in your whois. There is _NO_ reason
> they would need to be, and the contacts listed in the whois are the
> people who can exert control over the domain. Why would you list the
> web guy?
When the web guy is also handling all other aspects of the domain, but
the client refers to the "web" as synonymous to the "Internet". I've
never had a client that didn't need two or three repeats of the
explanation why this requires contracts with three companies (domain
registrar, DNS host, web host).
> The most important thing is to ensure that you are listed as the owner
> of the domain and that the email address for contact is one you will
> have in 5 years (so, your ISP provided email address is usually a poor
> choice).
And, er, don't list an email address IN the domain you've registered.
I managed to do that once in a fit of stupidity. Cost me a week on the
phone to Verisign. (Amusingly, after talking to five people telling me
I'd have to submit a pint of blood to prove I owned jeffporten.com, the
sixth person gave me the complete keys to the kingdom without ANY
identification beyond my say-so once I ponied up $35 on an eponymous
credit card. Worked for me, but boy is that a charming thought about
how easy it is to hijack a domain.)
> I have one woman who is trying to move her domain off enom and even
> though she is the owner she cannot get enom to reply to her emails.
> I've only dealt with enom once before, and they didn't answer my emails
> either.
Try a lawsuit. That'll get their attention. Only faster method I know
is to be friendly with many journalists.
Best,
Jeff
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nick170 (apparently)
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Mar 16, 2005 6:04 am
(#31 Total: 32)
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via email - http://www.inmff.net |
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Re: Domain Name Hoarding
>On Mar 12, 2005, at 4:27 PM, kevin  vanhaaren.net wrote:
>> < http://www.x.com/> (PayPal, not sure if they always had it)
>
>IIRC, there was briefly a competitor in this space with that domain;
>PayPal bought them and took along the domain as a redirect for existing
>customers.
I'm not sure who bought who, but this was a merger, and a friendly
one as I remember.
From:
< http://fox.rollins.edu/~slackman/PayPal.htm>
X.com, an online bank led by Elon Musk, founder and chairman, and
PayPal.com merged March 2, "creating the world's largest secure
network for instant online payments." PayPal.com kept its name as
the money transfer service, but X.com was listed as the "parent." In
June the web site broke into PC Data Online's list of the Top 100
based on the number of unique visitors to a site. The following
table was compiled from monthly data available through PR Newswire
Association, Inc. November data will be available in mid-December.
For the record PayPal was originally a service of Confinity, and they
were aiming at payments from mobile devices. Confinity and x.com
merged, and for a while you got to PayPal at the URL
http://www.paypal.x.com and it was X.com's PayPal. At some point
they figured the banking business wasn't as profitable as the money
transfer business and they shut down the bank. (Back in the day
PayPal never showed up on your credit card statement, it was always
Confinity...)
Another related article:
< http://www.ccs-digital.com/banker.html>
I don't think X.com actually ever was a bank -- they offered their
accounts via First Western National Bank.
Just a little bit of Internet trivia...
Nick
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Jeff Porten
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Mar 16, 2005 8:53 am
(#32 Total: 32)
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Re: Apple wins iTunes.co.uk case
This would be exactly the kind of abuse I was talking about. Apple wins iTunes.co.uk case
By Kieren McCarthy
Published Tuesday 15th March 2005 14:42 GMT Apple has been awarded control of the domain iTunes.co.uk, even though
it was registered before the Mac maker announced its online music
service. The decision by Nominet-appointed expert Claire Milne, a telecoms
consultant, puts the UK registry in a difficult position where it is
deciding cases for businesses despite prior rights and possibly against
the law of the land. < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/15/itunes_domain_case/>
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