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Home Theater Harmony

[brians]brians (apparently) - 08:25am Oct 12, 2004 PST
via email

I've long wanted a really universal remote that would make using my
system easier, but a single "watch TV" button won't do for me. I have
a DVR (Dishplayer 921) which requires a different input setting to
watch high-def programming and regular programming. In addition,
stretch may or may not have to be applied depending the aspect ratio
of the source. Can the Logitech Harmony handle these distinctions too?

<http://db.tidbits.com/getbits.acgi?tbart=07848>

--
Paul Brians
Professor of English
Director of Undergraduate Studies
Department of English
Washington State University
Pullman, WA 99164-2050
http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/


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atlauren757 (apparently) - Oct 14, 2004 7:43 am (#1 Total: 12)  

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Re: Home Theater Harmony

Hello,

This reply is cc'ed to TidBITS-Talk. I hope that's OK.

>I don't believe that Andrew Laurence gave a proper review of the Harmony
>remote. He really should have compared it to a *good* traditional universal
>remote to show the pros and cons of each kind.

I considered doing that, and my first draft had a paragraph which
mentioned Pronto, the MX-700 and One for All. However, the article
was a review of the Harmony, not a comparison piece.

>I have shopped -- and I mean SERIOUSLY shopped -- for remotes that can
>control all of my equipment gracefully.
>
>There is a brand that does everything well. One For All remotes provide
>comprehensive programmable solutions with intelligently grouped keys at an
>excellent price.

I agree - I've owned a few One For All remotes. They work remarkably
well, particularly for the price. However, I've never cared for how
they feel in my hand, and I grew tired of reevaluating my remote
based on my new devices. A given model may or may not have enough
device buttons to cover my devices, and over time I found it
burdensome to explain to people that a given button has three
different functions, depending on what "mode" the remote is in. I
far prefer to leave the state tracking to the remote.

>For example, the One For All model #8910 that I purchased for $25 dollars
>recently allows me to control a Yamaha receiver, Sony TV, Sony VCR, General
>Instruments cable box, Sungale DVD player, Daewoo CD player and my computer
>through a Keyspan Multimedia IR unit... and I still have one device key
>unused.

Harmony supports up to 15 devices on a single remote, and up to 255 activities.

>If the appropriate codes aren't already present in the remote, their tech
>support personnel can program new codes into the remote through the phone in
>a matter of a few seconds.
>
>If you don't like which key does what, then you can easily re-map them. If
>the device has an arcane function on its remote then the One For All remote
>can learn it. Almost every key is programmable. Key-functions can be swapped
>between devices. As with the Harmony, you can program macros for switching
>on and off and setting multiple devices at once. It isn't necessary to hook
>it up to a computer to reach the advanced functions, but with the
>appropriate cable, you can hack this remote from a PC.

Likewise, the Harmony can remap any function to any button, or learn
any new remote code. I should point out, however, that Harmony's
device tracking and activities aren't macros, and there's no
programming involved. Adding a function to an activity is a simple
click on the web page, and through state tracking the remote only
executes the function if it's needed.

For instance, if I move from "Watch TV" to "Watch DVD", the Harmony
turns on my receiver and DVD player, and turns on surround sound.
The devices are needed in the activity, so the remote knows to turn
them on. If I then switch to "Watch Video", the reciever switches to
the VCR input, but (and this is key) doesn't bother turning on
surround sound because it's already on.

Functions aren't steps in a macro, they're criteria that must be met
in an activity.

>Here is what my remote doesn't do: It doesn't "remember" the state of my
>equipment as the Harmony does. But remotes that "remember" states have to be
>reset whenever someone turns a device on or off or changes a setting
>manually. I suspect that moving through the menus to reset the Harmony is a
>greater annoyance than is indicated in the article.

Not so much. You can press "Help" and go through the questions, or
"Device", select the device and then press the function on either a
mapped hard button or one of the soft buttons. It's quite easily
dispatched.

>Because no comparisons were made to good universal remotes, the Harmony
>review hasn't addressed the fundamental question of whether purchasing a
>Harmony provides value over other reasonable choices. Given the information
>in the review, I can't see how the price is justified.

Again, the review was only of the Harmony, not a market comparison of
universal remote controls. I expect we'll hear from Pronto
enthusiasts as well. :-)

In the review I didn't mention the Harmony's physical design. It
emulates TiVo's wonderfully ergonomic "peanut" design, and nestles
into my hand quite nicely. I also appreciate that the physical
buttons are intelligently named so that they apply to similar
functions on multiple devices - "Menu", for instance, applies to a
DVD as well as the TiVo home screen. In addition, the remote isn't
hideously unattractive, and most importantly it has a high SAF
(Spousal Acceptance Factor). Between the physical design, activity
buttons and device intelligence, I can leave it on the coffee table
and be reasonably sure that my mother-in-law will be able find Regis.

Ultimately, remote controls are human input devices, and whether one
works for you is just as subjective as selecting a keyboard or
pointing device. (I love Kensington TurboMouse trackballs, for
example, but hate every other trackball I've tried.) Having used a
number of remotes over the years, I find the Harmony to be well worth
its price.

(Incidentally, street prices are about 30% below MSRP.)

>-Andrew Moses
>moses925comcast.net

Thanks for reading,
Andrew

--
Andrew Laurence
atlaurenuci.edu

atlauren (apparently) - Oct 14, 2004 7:43 am (#2 Total: 12)  

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Re: Home Theater Harmony

At 8:25 AM -0700 10/12/04, Paul Brians wrote:
>I've long wanted a really universal remote that would make using my
>system easier, but a single "watch TV" button won't do for me. I
>have a DVR (Dishplayer 921) which requires a different input setting
>to watch high-def programming and regular programming. In addition,
>stretch may or may not have to be applied depending the aspect ratio
>of the source. Can the Logitech Harmony handle these distinctions
>too?

You can have an activity for each 'mode'. Say, "Watch TV" for
standard def, "HD480i" for that settings, "HD480p", etc. Once the
devices are active, each activity would only change modes.

OR, you could put the resolutions on the soft buttons, with labels on
the LCD. Press "Watch TV" and then the soft buttons will have labels
like "StdDef","HD480i", etc. Whichever works for you.

I have separate activities named "TiVo Television" and "TiVo Stereo".
The former just turns on the TV and switches (if necessary) to the
input for TiVo. The latter turns on the stereo and surround sound,
for occasions when I've TiVo'd something sound-o-licious.

(The 921 doesn't auto-switch resolutions depending on the content? Bummer.)

--
Andrew Laurence
atlaurenuci.edu

Scot - Oct 14, 2004 7:43 am (#3 Total: 12)  

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Re: Home Theater Harmony

Yikes! $200+ for a programmable remote? Admittedly, the methods being developed by the JP-1 project aren't yet Mac compatible, but at $20/remote control, you can have all of the same functionality that Andrew described in the article. My own adventures with this technology are chronicled at:

http://www.gunsmoke.com/scot/home_automation/jp1.html

All you need is an inexpensive PC with a real parallel port and a willingness to roll up your sleeves and learn the ins and outs of the software.

Hope this helps,

Scot

kevinv (apparently) - Oct 14, 2004 7:43 am (#4 Total: 12)  

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Re: Home Theater Harmony

One of my questions was about the LCD screen. Logitech indicates it can be
used to show DVD titles, CD track names or MP3 names, but that this service
will be a monthly fee (!?). Was this working on the remote tested, and can
anyone explain why I would pay extra for that particular service?

<http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/products/comparison/US/EN,crid=2080,sh=1,chart=0,contentid=8789>

atlauren (apparently) - Oct 15, 2004 7:25 am (#5 Total: 12)  

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Re: Home Theater Harmony

At 7:43 AM -0700 10/14/04, Kevin van Haaren wrote:
> Logitech indicates it can be used to show DVD titles, CD track
>names or MP3 names, but that this service will be a monthly fee
>(!?). Was this working on the remote tested, and can anyone explain
>why I would pay extra for that particular service?

You can also have the LCD display TV listings. Neither function
appealed to me, however.

--
Andrew Laurence
atlaurenuci.edu

macmaxbh (apparently) - Oct 15, 2004 7:25 am (#6 Total: 12)  

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Re: Home Theater Harmony

Is there a list of DEVICES supported by the Harmony remote?

I find the remote quite interesting (although it's beyond my price
range), and I was wondering if it supported the Sony SuperData EX
(specifically, the VPH-1271Q) projector, since it's quite off the
beaten track. We currently use it to run our home theatre (it's the
type of projector you can see on the top of old auditoriums.

<http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=75403&item=5129047943&rd=1> shows a similar item).

macmaxbh

atlauren (apparently) - Oct 19, 2004 1:14 pm (#7 Total: 12)  

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Re: Home Theater Harmony

At 7:25 AM -0700 10/15/04, macmaxbh wrote:
>Is there a list of DEVICES supported by the Harmony remote?

The web site has a "demo" which essentially walks you through
creating an account, inputting your devices and setting up
activities. Therein you can discover whether (and to what extent) a
particular device is recognized. You add a device (projectors are
under the general "Television" category), select the manufacturer and
enter the model number.

(Drat! I should have put that in the review.)

When I added the Sony VPH-1271Q to my account, it appeared to be
immediately recognized and added to my device list. When I click
"Learn Infrared commands" for the projector, I see that about 41
functions are listed, with their source marked as "Harmony Database".

You can also teach the Harmony commands from the device's actual
remote, and then upload them into your account.

--
Andrew Laurence
atlaurenuci.edu

brians (apparently) - Oct 19, 2004 1:14 pm (#8 Total: 12)  

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Re: Home Theater Harmony

I was about to spring for the Harmony 688 when I read in the CNET
review that it lacks RF capabilities. I need to control my Dishplayer
921 which is in the next room, so infrared doesn't cut it.

--
Paul Brians
Professor of English
Director of Undergraduate Studies
Department of English
Washington State University
Pullman, WA 99164-2050
http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/

kevinv (apparently) - Oct 21, 2004 6:55 am (#9 Total: 12)  

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Re: Home Theater Harmony

--On Tuesday, October 19, 2004 1:14 PM -0700 Andrew Laurence
<atlaurenes.nacs.uci.edu> wrote:

> When I added the Sony VPH-1271Q to my account, it appeared to be
> immediately recognized and added to my device list. When I click "Learn
> Infrared commands" for the projector, I see that about 41 functions are
> listed, with their source marked as "Harmony Database".

I think Harmony is missing a huge benefit here. Instead of letting each
user needing to teach the learn remote controls they have, they should
share the learned devices among everybody -- much like CDDB does with CD
track names.

After a while they would have the largest database of remote control codes
of anyone.

Kevin

brendan (apparently) - Oct 25, 2004 2:47 pm (#10 Total: 12)  

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Re: Home Theater Harmony

On Oct 21, 2004, at 6:55 AM, Kevin van Haaren wrote:

> --On Tuesday, October 19, 2004 1:14 PM -0700 Andrew Laurence
> <atlaurenes.nacs.uci.edu> wrote:
>
>> When I added the Sony VPH-1271Q to my account, it appeared to be
>> immediately recognized and added to my device list. When I click
>> "Learn
>> Infrared commands" for the projector, I see that about 41 functions
>> are
>> listed, with their source marked as "Harmony Database".
>
> I think Harmony is missing a huge benefit here. Instead of letting
> each user needing to teach the learn remote controls they have, they
> should share the learned devices among everybody -- much like CDDB
> does with CD track names.
>
> After a while they would have the largest database of remote control
> codes of anyone.

No, they're not missing that benefit. That's exactly what they do.
That's what Andrew was describing. There were already 41 commands in
the shared database that he didn't have to teach it.

In my system, which has eight remote-controllable components (a few of
which are from relatively obscure manufacturers), not one of them
wasn't already in the database. I did have to teach the harmony a few
commands, but I don't think it was more than about ten commands total
across all eight components. (And for each one I taught, Harmony's
database got stronger.)

Brendan

Andrew Cohen (apparently) - Oct 25, 2004 2:52 pm (#11 Total: 12)  

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Re: Home Theater Harmony

>**Living in Harmony** -- I tested two remotes, the 659 ($200) and
> the newer 688 ($250). To my tastes, the 659's only drawback is the
> placement of the transport buttons (Rewind, Play, Fast Forward,
> Record, Pause, Stop) - they're at the very bottom of the remote.
> This placement may be fine for some, but I use those buttons all
> the time for driving my TiVo. Otherwise, I found the buttons to
> be well positioned, and with good tactile feedback.

I test drove the 659 while configuring it for a friend. Like Andrew
L., I found that the 659 was extremely poorly suited to TiVo use. I
also found the buttons to be much more "mushy" than the
standard-issue TiVo remote. For both reasons, I chose not to buy one
for myself. Does the new 688 have firmer buttons than the 659?

Andrew C.

kej (apparently) - Oct 26, 2004 7:13 am (#12 Total: 12)  

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Re: Home Theater Harmony



On Oct 25, 2004, at 4:52 PM, Andrew Cohen wrote:

> I test drove the 659 while configuring it for a friend. Like Andrew
> L., I found that the 659 was extremely poorly suited to TiVo use. I
> also found the buttons to be much more "mushy" than the standard-issue
> TiVo remote. For both reasons, I chose not to buy one for myself. Does
> the new 688 have firmer buttons than the 659?

After a great deal of soul-searching, I bought the Harmony 676 last
week:

<http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/products/detailsharmony/US/
EN,CRID=2084,CONTENTID=9511>

The button layout seemed much more Tivo-ish than either the 659 or the
688.

I was afraid that after three years of reliance on the Tivo remote, my
fingers would refuse to operate anything else...but after less than a
week, my new remote feels like second nature.

I am very pleased so far.

The Harmony forum at RemoteCentral was very helpful:

<http://www.remotecentral.com>

Keith Jackson
(no connection with Harmony/Logitech, etc.)



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