Leopard 10.5.2: TidBITS Complains, Apple Listens, Sort Of

Reported numerous bugs. No classic. Incompatible w/ Filemaker pro 6, (come on Apple, you own the company). Incompatible w/ Photoshop 7, (Do you realize how much It would cost to replace it?).

No thanks, I'll wait. For the first time since my original Mac, Apple has disappointed me.

>
>I seem to recall that submitting a bug report is not a trivial
>process. Remind me how to do it.

If you have an ADC account (anyone can get one, they're free), you
can submit bugs via Apple's BugReporter.
http://developer.apple.com/products/online.html
http://developer.apple.com/bugreporter/

Alternately, I have been told many, many, many times by Apple folks
that mailto:feedbackapple.com DOES work, all the email IS read by
humans, and that customer voice DOES matter.

-Andrew

--
Andrew Laurence
atlaurenuci.edu

On 02/19/2008 12:51 PM, "pete909" <petesurckla.com> wrote:

> Reported numerous bugs. No classic. Incompatible w/ Filemaker pro 6, (come on
> Apple, you own the company). Incompatible w/ Photoshop 7, (Do you realize how
> much It would cost to replace it?).
>
> No thanks, I'll wait. For the first time since my original Mac, Apple has
> disappointed me.

Dude, come on.

Filemaker Pro 6 came out in what, 2002? It was the first version to support
>31 character file names. I don't see any reason why Apple would do extra
work to support a product that doesn't even qualify to the current version
of FMPro. You had FMPro 7, 8, 8.5 and 9 in the meantime. Choosing to stay
with software that was shipped in 2002 may be a valid business choice for
you, but for Apple to make sure it's fully supported under an OS released 5
years later? No way.

Photoshop 7? Again, it's now within days of being six years old, and it's
not an Apple product. Repeat: *Not an APPLE product*. It is not Apple's job
to ensure compatibility with 5-6 year old third party applications. That's
Adobe's job, and Adobe's answer is simple: Upgrade.

If you cannot or will not upgrade, then don't run leopard. Okay, so you
can't buy new hardware, and the longer you wait, the worse the situation
will get. But, to expect half-decade old applications, one of which is not
even an Apple product to be fully supported in every OS release unto the end
of time?

That's um...a tad unrealistic.

--
John C. Welch Writer/Analyst
Bynkii.com Mac and other opinions
jwelchbynkii.com

"The jury is still out, for instance, on whether the first keystroke in a text field after a short period of inactivity will be randomly ignored."

Oh wow! This is one of those problems that nagged at me, but I never associated it with Leopard. But yeah -- it appeared around the time I upgraded. I was starting to wonder if something was wrong with my keyboard... or if I was looking at an OS reinstall. It's a relief to realize that this is an OS issue. Well, uh, it's a relief in the sense that now Apple can fix it. No, scratch that -- they WILL fix it. Right? ;)

On Tue, 19 Feb 2008, ksimon wrote:

> Oh wow! This is one of those problems that nagged at me, but I never
> associated it with Leopard. But yeah -- it appeared around the time I
> upgraded. I was starting to wonder if something was wrong with my
> keyboard... or if I was looking at an OS reinstall. It's a relief to
> realize that this is an OS issue. Well, uh, it's a relief in the sense
> that now Apple can fix it. No, scratch that -- they WILL fix it.
> Right? ;)

MacBook, MacBook Pro Keyboard Firmware Update 1.0
http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/macbookmacbookprokeyboardfirmwareupdate10.html

About the MacBook, MacBook Pro Keyboard Firmware Update 1.0
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=307355

Of note, it only applies to the Core 2 Duo machines, not the original
Core Duo Macbooks & Macbook Pros from early 2006, but the ones that came
out from late 2006 onward.


--
Chris Devers

On 19-Feb-2008, at 11:51, pete909 wrote:
> No classic.

Complaining about a lack of Classic is a bit like complaining about a
lack of support for the Apple // card, or, I don't know, Leopard not
running on a G3.

I mean, they had a FUNERAL for Classic. And it was a long time ago.
Classic is gone, dead, kaput, and it is a good thing. Yeah, there's
some edu software that my kids can't use anymore, but you know what,
they didn't like using stuff in Classic anyway, so it's been lying
fallow for years anyway.

Lack of classic is not a bug and no amount of foot-stomping or breath-
holding is going to bring it back. Apple gave tons and tons of warning
that it was going away.

> "The jury is still out, for instance, on whether the first keystroke
> in a text field after a short period of inactivity will be randomly
> ignored."
[...]
> No, scratch that -- they WILL fix it. Right? ;)

Assuming that you're using a MacBook [Pro], then the verdict is in -
they have fixed it:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=307355

Cheers,
Tony

At 4:08 PM -0800 2/19/08, John C. Welch wrote:
>If you cannot or will not upgrade, then don't run leopard. Okay, so you
>can't buy new hardware, and the longer you wait, the worse the situation
>will get. But, to expect half-decade old applications, one of which is not
>even an Apple product to be fully supported in every OS release unto the end
>of time?
>
>That's um...a tad unrealistic.

Well, this is what Microsoft is legondary for doing, and look at what
they turn out..

I'll leave that to stand as is.

~Nick
http://www.inmff.net

On 20/02/08 at 03:14 -0800 Tony Meyer apparently wrote:
>Assuming that you're using a MacBook [Pro], then the verdict is in -
>they have fixed it:
>
>http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=307355
>
>Cheers,
>Tony
>

I always loose the first keystroke I type after computer idled for a
while -- on PowerBook G4 running Tiger. Is that the same issue? I
gather no fix for me.

Robert

I am more than Miffed over the Apple Leopard update.....350MB update.

I have read and READ ALL the problems..... seems like a complete new OS not an update........

BIGGEST QUESTION:

Why add more than 300 NEW features in an update, and shout about it. WHY NOT Just FIX the OS, not add new features... yes yes yes.... some of the features were useful, and it shows they are listening, but I really need a few BUGS Fixing, many of which were fine in Tiger.

Boy....!!! I am so stressed and nervous at the thought of APPLE going the Microsoft route.... but hey Look where MS is now ;))

Quality of Service is costly !!! but lets be realistic, 6 months of Leopard, and where are we today... Same place as Vista....

Frustrated Unix Bod.!!

On 2/19/08 at 6:08 PM, jwelchbynkii.com (John C. Welch) wrote:

>Filemaker Pro 6 came out in what, 2002? It was the first version to support
>>31 character file names. I don't see any reason why Apple would do extra
>work to support a product that doesn't even qualify to the current version
>of FMPro. You had FMPro 7, 8, 8.5 and 9 in the meantime. Choosing to stay
>with software that was shipped in 2002 may be a valid business choice for
>you, but for Apple to make sure it's fully supported under an OS released 5
>years later? No way.

I will say one minor point in his defense: upgrading from FMP 6
and before to FMP 7 and after is not a trivial job at all; at a
minimum you'll have a lot of cleaning up and minor modifications
on the converted files, and to do it right you really need to
rewrite the thing. It was enough of a job that the company I
used to work for never sprang for it before I was let go. That
said, I just went and re-opened an old Filemaker 5 solution in
the Filemaker 5.5v1 Developer Edition and it appeared to be
working fine. (10.5.2, running on a first-gen MacBook Pro.)

>If you cannot or will not upgrade, then don't run leopard. Okay, so you
>can't buy new hardware, and the longer you wait, the worse the situation
>will get. But, to expect half-decade old applications, one of which is not
>even an Apple product to be fully supported in every OS release unto the end
>of time?
>
>That's um...a tad unrealistic.

Agreed. Every major system release has obsoleted software I've
owned, and while I've occasionally bitched and moaned, in the
end that's simply the way things *work*. And as someone else
noted, going to the mat with patches and special-case-handling
to make ancient applications keep running is part of what made
Windows Vista what it is today...

I do admit feeling a little twinge at the loss of Classic moving
to an Intel-based machine, as it meant dropping two games I've
had running on every system since *1984* - Tycoon and Load
Runner. :)


Travis Butler
tbutlermac.com

...Cats are the proof of a higher purpose to the universe.

I just wanted to give Quay a huge thumbs up. It was essential BEFORE
10.5.2 (for me) and when I read the 10.5.2 release notes I temporarily
uninstalled it to see how Apple did. Native behavior sucks much less,
but I almost immediately reinstalled Quay. It's WAY more flexible than
the native behavior.

While for me it's not in the "essential" category (DefaultFolder,
mmmmmmm) I don't intend to live without it in the future.

On 2008-02-21, at 18:47, Travis Butler wrote:

> I do admit feeling a little twinge at the loss of Classic moving
> to an Intel-based machine, as it meant dropping two games I've
> had running on every system since *1984* - Tycoon and Load
> Runner. :)

There's arcade versions of Lode Runner available through MacMAME,
though you can't create your own levels. There's also Lemmings 8-)

The other option is an emulator like Mini vMac, which I've used to
relive my memories in both Lemmings and Battle Chess.

At 21:47 on 20-02-2008, Travis Butler wrote:
> I do admit feeling a little twinge at the loss of Classic moving to
> an Intel-based machine, as it meant dropping two games I've had
> running on every system since *1984* - Tycoon and Load Runner. :)

SheepShaver might allow you to continue this tradition...

<http://gwenole.beauchesne.info/projects/sheepshaver/>

_________________
=> Jolin

chris Parker wrote:
> I am more than Miffed over the Apple Leopard update.....350MB update.
>
>
> I have read and READ ALL the problems..... seems like a complete new
> OS not an update........
>
> BIGGEST QUESTION:
>
> Why add more than 300 NEW features in an update, and shout about it.
> WHY NOT Just FIX the OS, not add new features... yes yes yes.... some
> of the features were useful, and it shows they are listening, but I
> really need a few BUGS Fixing, many of which were fine in Tiger.

This is a bone of contention to those of us who support businesses but you've likely got it wrong. The issue is that Apple doesn't DETAIL what they fixed. They just talk about the highlights. So that 300mb update likely has 100s of fixes which are not mentioned to the public.

David

On 20-Feb-2008, at 22:47, Travis Butler wrote:
> I do admit feeling a little twinge at the loss of Classic moving
> to an Intel-based machine, as it meant dropping two games I've
> had running on every system since *1984* - Tycoon and Load
> Runner. :)


I do miss Lode Runner, but it never worked correctly under Classic for
me anyway. That is to say, it ran, without sound, but the timing was
off (this is also why the supposed new improved color Lode Runner was
such a failure for me). Since so many of the upper levels, or the
championship level in particular, where about extremely precise
timing, it made the game a lot less fun.

I do still have an old Mac SE that I pull out, hook up to power, and
play LR for a few hours every now and again.

OTOH, I bet LR is old enough it would run just as well in Sheepshaver
as it did in Classic. Might be worth looking into.

The other Classic games I miss a lot was Prince of Persia and Prince
of Persia II. They run under classic, but at least for me, I had to
find instructions on bypassing the copy protection on Google.


--
"As God as my witness, I though turkeys could fly," Arthur Carlson,
WKRP in Cincinnati

On or about 2/21/08 6:44 AM, thus spake "David Ross"
<drdavidrossconsultant.com>:

> The issue is that Apple doesn't DETAIL what they fixed. They just talk about
> the highlights. So that 300mb update likely has 100s of fixes which are not
> mentioned to the public.

Indeed. Take a look at this:

<http://www.macscoop.com/articles/2008/01/20/mac-os-x-10-5-2-update-bring-en
dless-list-fixes>

So 10.5.2 includes dozens of fixes to Cocoa. That means that these fixes
affect *every* Cocoa application, which these days is most applications,
period. Moreover, some of these fixes are absolutely crucial, because the
bugs that they fix could (for example) cause major loss of data in apps that
worked fine on Tiger. But Apple doesn't tell the public what these fixes
are, or even that they exist. It isn't even clear to me that it was legal
for MacScoop to publish them (though, since they've done so, I have no
hesitation in pointing out the URL).

To me, this is merely a variant on "improves compatibility with Mac OS X".
Apple should tell the public everything that's changed in a system update.
Everything. Period. Whether it thinks the public can understand it or not.

To give another example: this release (10.5.2) has totally wrecked my
computer's USB sound output behavior. So clearly something (probably a
kernel extension) having to do with USB IO has been changed (for the worse).
But nothing in any release note tells you so. m.

--
matt neuburg, phd = matttidbits.com, http://www.tidbits.com/matt/
pantes anthropoi tou eidenai oregontai phusei
Among the 2007 MacTech Top 25, http://tinyurl.com/2rh4pf
AppleScript: the Definitive Guide, http://tinyurl.com/2ouo3b
Take Control of Customizing Leopard, http://tinyurl.com/2t9629
TidBITS, Mac news and reviews since 1990, http://www.tidbits.com

I just tried sending e-mail to feedbackapple.com this evening, and it bounced:

<feedbackapple.com>: host elderberry.apple.com[17.128.115.181] said: 550 5.1.1 unknown or illegal alias: feedbackapple.com (in reply to RCPT TO command)

[Perhaps they disabled the email address due to spam. The web page seems to be favored now: http://www.apple.com/feedback/

-Andrew ]

On Feb 21, 2008, at 6:38 PM, Matt Neuburg wrote:

> To give another example: this release (10.5.2) has totally wrecked my
> computer's USB sound output behavior. So clearly something (probably a
> kernel extension) having to do with USB IO has been changed (for the
> worse).
> But nothing in any release note tells you so. m.

Well, everything I do with USB sound output is working fine in 10.5.2
on my MacBook. (Untested on my PPC Mini.)

But..."everything" is Skype output to USB headset, a very small sample.

   --John (who wants real release notes, but not enough to switch to
Windows to get them)

At 9:47 PM -0800 2/20/08, Travis Butler wrote:
>I will say one minor point in his defense: upgrading from FMP 6
>and before to FMP 7 and after is not a trivial job at all; at a
>minimum you'll have a lot of cleaning up and minor modifications
>on the converted files, and to do it right you really need to
>rewrite the thing. It was enough of a job that the company I
>used to work for never sprang for it before I was let go. That
>said, I just went and re-opened an old Filemaker 5 solution in
>the Filemaker 5.5v1 Developer Edition and it appeared to be
>working fine. (10.5.2, running on a first-gen MacBook Pro.)

I have a set of small databases (developed and still used in FMP 5.5)
which I use a few times a month. They perform an essential function,
but are sufficiently in the "noise" category of my work that I've
never bothered to update to newer versions, or rewrite in another
environment.

I'm quite pleased to find that it/they work just fine under Leopard
on my Mac Book Pro (mid-2007).

-Andrew

--
Andrew Laurence
atlaurenuci.edu