No CableCard for the Apple TV

--On January 17, 2008 6:05:50 AM -0800 David Weintraub <qazwartgmail.com>
wrote:

> Steve is simply wrong here. I would buy an Apple TV in a minute if it
> came with a CableCard slot. Right now, I pay $7 per month to "rent" my
> DVR/Cablebox. If the Apple TV came with a CableCard slot, I'd get rid
> of my DVR and replace it with an Apple TV.
>
> For now, an Apple TV is just another box I have to wire up to
> everything else in my entertainment system.

I think he's right for several reasons. Cablecards seem to be a bit
flakey. I have to reboot the cablecards in my Tivo S3 occasionally, and
I've had to call in 2 or 3 times last year to have the cable company reset
the cards from their end. Frustrating when all i watch is shows that are on
the DVR and I don't know about it until it records a blank show.

Cablecard support mostly comes from the Cable company. As friendly as my
cable support group is (and Time-Warner in Kansas City has been pretty good
on these issues) they have no idea what a tivo is and they think I have two
TV sets with cable cards (and that I'm weird for apparently having them
right next to each other.) I think Apple is wise not to sully their
reputation for pretty good support by turning over some of the support for
one of their devices to a cable company.

Next of course is that providing alternative options for getting shows onto
an Apple TV other than iTunes reduces usage of the iTunes Store. Why should
the cable company get your monthly fee when you can subscribe to season
passes for TV shows on iTunes (I actually considered doing this once.)

Finally I think Steve hopes to accomplish in video what the iPod/iTunes
store accomplished in music. Look at the fall of CD purchases and the
increase in digital downloads and you'll see an industry in the middle of a
major format change where CDs go the way of the vinyl record. I think he
anticipates doing the same in video and begin sucking away cable customers
completely to digital downloads. A cablecard solution would distract from
that end.

Apple isn't the only one anticipating this. You have Netflix supposedly
coming out with a set top box. Microsoft and Sony added Divx playback to
the XBox 360 and Playstation 3. Amazon Unbox has teamed up with Tivo
(probably the only combo download+cable solution currently available.)

These reasons are the same reasons I don't think you'll ever see BluRay or
HD-DVD or even a DVD added to an AppleTV. It gives customers alternatives
to the iTunes store.

At 6:05 AM -0800 1/17/08, David Weintraub wrote:
>>From the New York Times article w/ Steve talking to David Pogue:
>> The [Apple TV rental] model will not extend to cable television,
>>[Steve Jobs] insisted. "We're not going to go there with the cable
>>cards," he said, referring to the relatively open cable industry
>>connectors that are gradually allowing companies like TiVo to
>>replace the standard set-top box. "That whole industry, their
>>go-to-market strategy is pretty loopy, and it's fractured," he
>>said. "Our model is like DVD."
>If the Apple TV came with a CableCard slot, I'd get rid of my DVR
>and replace it with an Apple TV.
>
>For now, an Apple TV is just another box I have to wire up to
>everything else in my entertainment system.

I think Apple's goal here isn't to become a nice player with cable
television. Its to replace it.

I've sworn off cable television. I cannot justify pitching somewhere
between $40 and $100 a month for the shlock that comes off that.
Sure there is some good stuff, but the amount of garbage that must be
waded through is extremely prohibitive.

Apple is doing a charge ahead play here, al la shipping the iMac with
only USB ports. "Here is what we support, we think it is best for
what you'll need to do.

In 10 to 20 years what we now know as networks will deliver their
programming on demand as programming services. The terrorism that
telvision schedulers have on our collective social lives will be a
long forgotten thing of the past.

~Nick
http://www.inmff.net

I've looked long and hard at some sort of computer-media center type
device because of the high cost of cable TV. For my $70/month (for a
fairly minimal cable package), I can afford to buy two or three season
passes on iTunes every month! For people who don't watch a lot of TV
and find the movie rentals appealing (I'm talking to you, parents!),
that's an almost-feasible option.

The unfortunate thing is that iTunes is hardly a one-stop-shop for TV
shows. NBC's pulled their content, and they don't have HBO, Sci Fi,
and a lot of other popular cable channels.

I've messed around with NBC's streaming video service as well as
Netflix's, and they work pretty well. So maybe the best addition to an
Apple TV is a web browser with Flash support. And, I suppose, there's
always TvRss.net and Miro, assuming AppleTV 2.0 is still hackable
enough to install Perian.

Of course, once I hack together a system like that, I may as well get
a low-cost Windows Media Center PC, which may cost more, but it can
get all the iTunes content, access EVERY streaming video service, has
a web browser, and can play any video content under the sun. Yes, I
sacrifice UI a bit (but only a bit), but it ain't that bad.

--Nik

On 18-Jan-08 11:40, "Nicholas Barnard" <nickinmff.net> wrote:

> In 10 to 20 years what we now know as networks will deliver their
> programming on demand as programming services. The terrorism that
> telvision schedulers have on our collective social lives will be a
> long forgotten thing of the past.

I've had TiVo for a long time, so I have no idea what you are talking about.
TV Schedules? I vaguely remember something about Thursdays on NBC, but that
was beck when Hill Street Blues was on, and later when Dr Green was on ER.
That's about the last time I recall worrying about schedules.

On 18-Jan-08 11:40, "Nik Friedman TeBockhorst" <nikinik.net> wrote:
> Of course, once I hack together a system like that, I may as well get
> a low-cost Windows Media Center PC, which may cost more, but it can
> get all the iTunes content, access EVERY streaming video service, has
> a web browser, and can play any video content under the sun. Yes, I
> sacrifice UI a bit (but only a bit), but it ain't that bad.

A friend of mine has a Windows Media Center setup and I have to say, using
it makes Windows look warm and fuzzy. It's HORRIBLE, and finding music is a
pain, and setting a playlist is pretty easy, but a single misstep and it's
all wiped out.

MythTV is where I'd look, or an AppleTV with xvid codecs.

On 19 Jan 2008, at 12:08, lewisGmail wrote:

> MythTV is where I'd look, or an AppleTV with xvid codecs.

EyeTV v3 now has smart filtering so you can search for programmes,
put them into a seperate guide and optionally autorecord them,
convert for Apple TV/ipod and put them in to a playlist. The software
gained the ability to serve files up via http in the last couple of
2.5.x versions.

Once the files are converted to Apple TV/ipod they are transferred to
iTunes and onto Apple TV, or can be played via AppleTV<->iTunes sharing.

It just works (tm)

Cheers
        
        f

On Jan 19, 2008 5:08 AM, lewisGmail <gkremegmail.com> wrote:
> A friend of mine has a Windows Media... It's HORRIBLE,
>
> MythTV is where I'd look, or an AppleTV with xvid codecs.

While there's lots of options for using content you've ripped or
downloaded, there's far fewer for legitimate, legal, video sources.

If all you want is video rentals, and you're willing to limit yourself
to one provider (Apple), the AppleTV is great. If you want a wider
selection of online video rentals, as well as streaming and
downloadable television content, you simply need Windows. It's the
only platform that supports all the different forms of DRM out there,
including Apple's!

The sad thing here is that video rentals is an area where DRM is
hardly pernicious at all. The content is considered temporary from the
get-go. The studios and other distributors could generate HUGE
goodwill for their services by making them widely available on every
platform and/or every service. If they can also embrace the open
source solutions out there (which are extremely popular, at least
among a certain set of early adopters), they'd stand to generate a
very happy customer base that would happily expand into other
offerings. (DRM'd or otherwise)

Unfortunately, the market here is still incredibly fragmented. As
painful as the Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD fight has been for consumers
interested in viewing HD content, it pales in comparison with the
services to download or rent video.


--
Nik

nikinik.net | http://inik.net | http://notions.inik.net

At 10:40 AM -0800 1/18/08, Nicholas Barnard wrote:
>At 6:05 AM -0800 1/17/08, David Weintraub wrote:
>>>From the New York Times article w/ Steve talking to David Pogue:
>>> The [Apple TV rental] model will not extend to cable television,
>>>[Steve Jobs] insisted. "We're not going to go there with the cable
>>>cards," he said, referring to the relatively open cable industry
>>>connectors that are gradually allowing companies like TiVo to
>>>replace the standard set-top box. "That whole industry, their
>>>go-to-market strategy is pretty loopy, and it's fractured," he
>>>said. "Our model is like DVD."
>>If the Apple TV came with a CableCard slot, I'd get rid of my DVR
>>and replace it with an Apple TV.
>>
>>For now, an Apple TV is just another box I have to wire up to
>>everything else in my entertainment system.
>
>I think Apple's goal here isn't to become a nice player with cable
>television. Its to replace it.
>
>I've sworn off cable television. I cannot justify pitching somewhere
>between $40 and $100 a month for the shlock that comes off that.
>Sure there is some good stuff, but the amount of garbage that must be
>waded through is extremely prohibitive.
>
>Apple is doing a charge ahead play here, al la shipping the iMac with
>only USB ports. "Here is what we support, we think it is best for
>what you'll need to do.
>
>In 10 to 20 years what we now know as networks will deliver their
>programming on demand as programming services. The terrorism that
>telvision schedulers have on our collective social lives will be a
>long forgotten thing of the past.

I disagree - there is a significant amount of stuff that is both:
        * displayed on a schedule
        * not valuable when delayed a lot.

A good example of this is "sports".

(Almost) no one will want to watch tomorrow's football games on Monday.

[ For pre-recorded shows, I agree with your point completely. ]
--
-- Marshall

At 1:30 PM -0800 1/19/08, Marshall Clow wrote:
>At 10:40 AM -0800 1/18/08, Nicholas Barnard wrote:
>>In 10 to 20 years what we now know as networks will deliver their
>>programming on demand as programming services. The terrorism that
>>telvision schedulers have on our collective social lives will be a
>>long forgotten thing of the past.
>
>I disagree - there is a significant amount of stuff that is both:
> * displayed on a schedule
> * not valuable when delayed a lot.
>
>A good example of this is "sports".
>
>(Almost) no one will want to watch tomorrow's football games on Monday.
>
>[ For pre-recorded shows, I agree with your point completely. ]

Of course, but everything has a release time.. Live programming has
a release time at the start of the program. So everyone will watch
the Super Bowl "On Demand" at nearly the same time. Some people
might get home from work late so they'll be behind the "live"
broadcast. My basic point is the One-to-Many model will survive,
just not in a mandated simultaneous manner.

~Nick
http://www.inmff.net

On 1/19/08 4:08 AM, ""lewisGmail"" <gkremegmail.com> wrote:

> I've had TiVo for a long time, so I have no idea what you are talking about.
> TV Schedules? I vaguely remember something about Thursdays on NBC, but that
> was beck when Hill Street Blues was on, and later when Dr Green was on ER.
> That's about the last time I recall worrying about schedules.

I can download Amazon Unbox movies to my TiVo and watch them on my TV. Now
if I could download from iTunes rental, that would be great, but to buy a
box so I can rent from iTunes makes no sense to me.

--
Diane

"lewisGmail" [gkremegmail.com] wrote:
 
> I've had TiVo for a long time, so I have no idea what you are talking
> about. TV Schedules? I vaguely remember something about Thursdays on
> NBC, but that was beck when Hill Street Blues was on, and later when
> Dr Green was on ER. That's about the last time I recall worrying
> about schedules.

Unfortunately, TiVo doesn't exist in most of the world. We're still
stuck with schedules (unless you're willing to invest time and potential
headaches in setting up a MythTV system).

Harro de Jong

On 21 Jan 2008, at 14:17, Harro de Jong wrote:

> Unfortunately, TiVo doesn't exist in most of the world. We're still
> stuck with schedules (unless you're willing to invest time and
> potential
> headaches in setting up a MythTV system)

The new El Gato EyeTV v3 gets pretty close to Tivo - it doesn't have
the auto choice stuff but you can do auto-recording on saved searches
now.

And of course in the UK you can buy into Sky and it's Tivoesque boxes.

        f

David Weintraub wrote:
> From the New York Times article w/ Steve talking to David Pogue:
>
>> The [Apple TV rental] model will not extend to cable television, [Steve Jobs] insisted. "We're not going to go there with the cable cards,"
>> he said, referring to the relatively open cable industry connectors that are gradually allowing companies like
>> TiVo to replace the standard set-top box. "That whole industry, their go-to-market strategy is pretty loopy,
>> and it's fractured," he said. "Our model is like DVD."
>
> Grrrr...
>
> Steve is simply wrong here. I would buy an Apple TV in a minute if it
> came with a CableCard slot. Right now, I pay $7 per month to "rent" my
> DVR/Cablebox. If the Apple TV came with a CableCard slot, I'd get rid
> of my DVR and replace it with an Apple TV.
>
> For now, an Apple TV is just another box I have to wire up to
> everything else in my entertainment system.

Reading ahead to the current state of this thread. What it comes down to is everyone currently wants to control how you watch things. The cable companies want you to use their box. TiVo wants you to use theirs. TVs are great with PIP and all that but try and explain it to my wife or worse yet our parents and how you use it with the cable box for HBO and TiVo and a MacTV box.

I had to put together a cheat card for my mother in law just to let her watch DVDs and switch back to TV for tuning the cable channels. And it only has about 4 steps for any process and a clear path to get "back to go" for when she gets confused. But since she doesn't really have a feel for what's going on she keeps trying to do things "intuitively" instead of just doing what is written on the card. And then tells us we've messed up her TV and/or DVD player. :(

It is going to be a while before things get rational.

David Ross

On 19-Jan-2008, at 14:58, Marshall Clow wrote:
> I disagree - there is a significant amount of stuff that is both:
> * displayed on a schedule
> * not valuable when delayed a lot.
>
> A good example of this is "sports".

Really? I generally watch sports off my Tivo, often when they are
completed, but always when they are at least half way through their
scheduled time slots.

> (Almost) no one will want to watch tomorrow's football games on
> Monday.

I didn't wait until Monday, but I watched the AFC game starting at
about halftime. By the middle of the 4th quarter, I'd caught up to
'live' broadcasting. And I haven't had to watch 8,000 commercials for
impotency cures.

This is usually what I do with the Super Bowl also, start after
halftime (since the halftime is 1) longer and 2) dull 3) not sports
related)

With Wimbledon, I 'tape' the live broadcast starting at 6am or 7am or
whatever, and then watch it that afternoon. I've pretty much stopped
watching the finals at Wimbledon because by the time they are
broadcast on NBC, they have already been over for quite a while and it
is too hard to avoid all my online friends for that long. I managed to
last year, by staying up on Friday night until 4am, getting up at
noon, and not getting online until I'd seen the women's finals. But
it's hard to plan that each year :)

With the NFL game it's not an issue since none of my online friends
care... :)

The Summer Olympics will be a similar disaster (remember Sydney?)
where I expect NBC will once again delay some events 15-20+ hours
before showing them. The 17 hour time difference is going to really
suck (or is it 18 hours in the summer? I don't know if the Chinese do
DST).

The only thing that I ever watch 'live' anymore is big news stories.
Really BIG. My wife watches the local evening news, but I am not
interested in waterskiing squirrels or the pap that passes for 'news'
on US television, so I get my news from news.google.com and
news.bbc.co.uk.

So, in short, there's nothing that I watch that I need to see 'live'.
I can't imagine I'm the only one.

"LewisGmail" <gkremegmail.com> wrote:
>On 19-Jan-2008, at 14:58, Marshall Clow wrote:
>>I disagree - there is a significant amount of stuff that is both:
>> * displayed on a schedule
>> * not valuable when delayed a lot.
>>
>>A good example of this is "sports".
>
>Really? I generally watch sports off my Tivo, often when they are
>completed, but always when they are at least half way through their
>scheduled time slots.

I watch sports off my Tivo, too - but not a week after the game.
[ More like 15 minutes delayed ]

>>(Almost) no one will want to watch tomorrow's football games on
>>Monday.
>
>I didn't wait until Monday, but I watched the AFC game starting at
>about halftime. By the middle of the 4th quarter, I'd caught up to
>'live' broadcasting. And I haven't had to watch 8,000 commercials for
>impotency cures.

That's fine - but the Apple TV/iTunes "rental" model doesn't address
this - and I don't think they ever will.
--
-- Marshall

For now, cable is still extremely important because it has about 90%
of what I watch. Watching YouTube videos on AppleTV is not a good
substitute. Maybe one day soon, cable TV will have to compete with
YouTube and other Internet services. Maybe one day, I could have an
AppleTV and not miss my DVD player or cable box. Maybe one day, all of
the networks and major cable producers will have their stuff on
iTunes, but that day isn't today.

As I stated before -- if the AppleTV had a CableCard slot, I'd run out
this very second to buy one -- even though it doesn't have a DVR
option. But, without it, my choice is either cable or AppleTV, and
cable right now wins.

I understand the direction Jobs wants to go with AppleTV, but he's
still floundering a bit. Separating AppleTV from the Mac is a good
move, but would it have killed Steve Jobs to add a CableCard slot, a
DVD player, and a DVR to the mix? I'd pay the original $300 price for
that combination without a question. Heck, I'd buy two and put one
upstairs. Maybe one day, the CableCard slot and the DVR will be about
as useful as my VCR which I haven't touched in years. But, not today.

--
David Weintraub
qazwartgmail.com