Thinking of Tablet Macs

On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:27:35 -0700, maclistsadditional.com
<maclistsadditional.com> wrote:
> It appears that the iMac G5 already forms the basis of a decent
> tablet - just add the right screen overlay.

And a reduction in weight by, what, 90%?

[Yeah, I think you'd really need to merge an iMac G5 and an iBook to come close to the tablet form factor. -Adam]

--
 ::::== <http://2blog.kreme.com> ==::::

At 4:32 PM -0600 9/15/04, Google Kreme wrote:
>On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:27:35 -0700, maclistsadditional.com
><maclistsadditional.com> wrote:
>> It appears that the iMac G5 already forms the basis of a decent
>> tablet - just add the right screen overlay.
>
>And a reduction in weight by, what, 90%?

If you want to use it as a one-for-one replacement for a TabletPC,
yes, it would need to slim down. However, the tablet interface is
useful in other places where you don't want a keyboard & mouse e.g.
kiosks.

Think Different! ;)

Dave

At 8:27 on 15-9-04, maclistsadditional.com wrote:
> Handwriting recognition is already there in OS X, and based on my
> Newton experience (since Inkwell is based on the same engine), it
> would rival Microsoft's handwriting recognition.

Actually, I was disappointed to find out this is not the case. I
recently had the opportunity to try out both a tablet PC and a Wacom
tablet attached to a PowerBook. In my experience, the tablet PC's
recognition of moderately difficult handwriting was noticeably better
than the PowerBook. Additionally (and this was a big disappointment
for me), the PowerBook couldn't recognise cursive or script
handwriting -- everything had to be printed. The tablet PC, on the
other hand, allowed one to mix script and print and still recognised
the writing correctly.

The other thing missing from Apple's 'Ink' is the ability to reliably
specify single letters on their own. How does one differentiate
between 'S' and 's'? There are lines on the writing background that
appears with Ink, but if I simply wrote 's' (keeping it between two
lines instead of three), Ink almost always recognised this as 'S'.
The reason seems to be that Ink relies on interpreting complete words
and therefore uses context to decide about capital letters. Ideally
there should be a way to switch to a graffiti style input (which is
deterministic with regards to capitals) as the tablet PC allows.

If I'm programming on my Mac with a tablet as my primary interface,
I'm going to need to enter 'words' that will never be found in the
English (or French, German, etc.) language. For example, what if I
have a variable named 'EXMyVariable'? Or 'x'? Once the tablet becomes
the primary interface, it needs to be flexible enough to accept more
than just printed words and sentences.

The area where the PowerBook clearly beat the tablet PC was in Ink's
integration with the Mac OS. Being able to write anywhere on the
screen and use gestures to make corrections or copy and paste was
truly wonderful. Using the pen on a tablet PC (in my limited
experience) was cumbersome because of the interface.

I don't think that these issues with Ink can't be resolved. In fact,
I think that the integration with the OS and the interface are the
hardest aspects to get right, and Apple seems to have a good head
start on this. But I do think that they need to improve the
handwriting recognition aspect, even though it is currently
acceptable if one is printing normal words.

_________________
=> Jolin Warren, Edinburgh, Scotland

> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:27:35 -0700, maclistsadditional.com
> <maclistsadditional.com> wrote:
>> It appears that the iMac G5 already forms the basis of a decent
>> tablet - just add the right screen overlay.
>
> And a reduction in weight by, what, 90%?
>
> [Yeah, I think you'd really need to merge an iMac G5 and an iBook to come
> close to the tablet form factor. -Adam]

Not to mention the question of whether there's actually a workable market
for a tablet. The last I heard, the most recent round of Wintel-based Tablet
PCs were tanking fairly hard in the general marketplace, and I don't know if
the vertical market niches would be enough to make it worth Apple's while to
develop one.

At 8:38 AM -0700 9/16/04, Jolin M Warren wrote:
>At 8:27 on 15-9-04, maclistsadditional.com wrote:
>> Handwriting recognition is already there in OS X, and based on my
>>Newton experience (since Inkwell is based on the same engine), it
>>would rival Microsoft's handwriting recognition.
>
>[...] Additionally (and this was a big disappointment for me), the
>PowerBook couldn't recognise cursive or script handwriting --
>everything had to be printed. The tablet PC, on the other hand,
>allowed one to mix script and print and still recognised the writing
>correctly.

Boy, that's indeed a surprise. I think that Newtons generally did
better with script than unconnected letters (but maybe I'm
mistaken--it's getting to be a while!). Certainly I too have found
that my TabletPC handles a mix well enough.

>If I'm programming on my Mac with a tablet as my primary interface,
>I'm going to need to enter 'words' that will never be found in the
>English (or French, German, etc.) language. For example, what if I
>have a variable named 'EXMyVariable'? Or 'x'? Once the tablet
>becomes the primary interface, it needs to be flexible enough to
>accept more than just printed words and sentences.

Yeah, programming with only a pen can drive you nuts! I ended up
using the on-screen keyboard for everything except comments.
Programming environments that provide auto-completion are a huge
help though. Still, if I'm programming, given the choice, I hook up
a keyboard and mouse.

>The area where the PowerBook clearly beat the tablet PC was in Ink's
>integration with the Mac OS. Being able to write anywhere on the
>screen and use gestures to make corrections or copy and paste was
>truly wonderful. Using the pen on a tablet PC (in my limited
>experience) was cumbersome because of the interface.

This is certainly true for applications that haven't been extended to
use the pen interface. Microsoft has made some steps to improve
things in the latest release of XP (such as allowing the input panel
to be brought up near the area accepting data). Far better, though,
are applications that were designed with the pen as an equal partner
in the user interface. Tablets' share of the market, though, will
have to become much larger before that becomes commonplace.

Dave

> Additionally (and this was a big disappointment for me), the PowerBook
> couldn't recognise cursive or script handwriting -- everything had to
> be printed. The tablet PC, on the other hand, allowed one to mix
> script and print and still recognised the writing correctly.

If I recall correctly, the last version of the Newton OS had two forms
of handwriting recognition (printed and cursive), but only one was
home-grown (known as "Rosetta") -- the other was licensed, which is
probably why it isn't available in OS X.

BRIAN/bpearcecloud9.net
<http://www.redjacketpress.com>

At 08:38 -0700 UTC, on 2004/09/16, Jolin M Warren wrote:

> At 8:27 on 15-9-04, maclistsadditional.com wrote:
>> Handwriting recognition is already there in OS X, and based on my
>> Newton experience (since Inkwell is based on the same engine), it
>> would rival Microsoft's handwriting recognition.
>
> Actually, I was disappointed to find out this is not the case. I
> recently had the opportunity to try out both a tablet PC and a Wacom
> tablet attached to a PowerBook. In my experience, the tablet PC's
> recognition of moderately difficult handwriting was noticeably better
> than the PowerBook. Additionally (and this was a big disappointment
> for me), the PowerBook couldn't recognise cursive or script
> handwriting

I never tried Inkwell, but if it truly is based on Newton then this is
surprising to hear. It took my Newton maybe 2 weeks of writing (some 1 or 2
hours a day) to learn to recognize my handwriting. Not perfectly but
acurately enough to be useful. (And I did my very best to not adjust my
handwriting to it. Not worth it risking tendenitis for.)

Does Inkwell, like Newton, offer a learning mode? If so, dis you give it
enough time? I wouldn't be surprised if another system would do better at
first, but does not learn and thus do worse in the long run. (And to me
"worse" would include getting tendenitis from cramped adjustement of one's
handwriting to the 'puter's (in)capabilities.)

--
Sander Tekelenburg, <http://www.euronet.nl/~tekelenb/>

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:31:55 -0700, Sander Tekelenburg
<tekelenbeuronet.nl> wrote:
> I never tried Inkwell, but if it truly is based on Newton then this is
> surprising to hear.

I don't know why people think it is based on Rosetta. Sure, that
would make sense, but the recognition is pretty crappy, so I doubt
Rosetta is involved.

I cannot get ink to recognize my handwriting, period. If I am lucky,
I cna get as much as 10% ofthe characters right, but that ignores
spacing and capitilization errors.

I use my tablet as an alternative to the trackpad on my iBook.
(Because when I have it connected, which i don't now, I don't
get accidental mouseclicks and moves like the previous message getting
submitted before I was done.)

[And fixed by your friendly local moderator. -Adam]

> > Does Inkwell, like Newton, offer a learning mode?

Nope. I was hoping it would, because then it could learn even my
handwriting, but there is no learning,

If you can print neatly and quickly, Ink will work for you. If, like
me, you didn't learn to print until 9th or 10th grade, and never
neatly, you're out of luck.

--
 ::::== <http://2blog.kreme.com> ==::::

At 7:31 AM -0700 9/21/04, Travis Butler wrote:

>Not to mention the question of whether there's actually a workable market
>for a tablet. The last I heard, the most recent round of Wintel-based Tablet
>PCs were tanking fairly hard in the general marketplace, and I don't know if
>the vertical market niches would be enough to make it worth Apple's while to
>develop one.

Well, I chuckled when I read that - reminded me of so many articles
about the Macintosh (starting in 1984).

I don't have figures to back this up, but my feeling is that the
TabletPC market is fairly solid and growing. Manufacturers keep
introducing new versions (so they're not giving up on it as one would
expect if the market were flat) and the price difference seems to be
dropping. The price difference is primarily due to the pen-sensitive
screen, although I know that Microsoft used to charge a premium for
the OS as well; not sure if that is still true. Also the base
configuration to be labelled a TabletPC requires things (microphone,
802.11b) that base level portables don't have so prices are unfairly
compared sometimes (sound familiar?)

You might find this June blog entry interesting:

   <http://blogs.msdn.com/evanf/archive/2004/06/08/151124.aspx>

It's by Evan Feldman who was involved in the original TabletPC
development. Just to complete a "sounds familiar" trilogy, it begins:

   Reports of my death are greatly exaggerated - so say the TabletPC

   I don't know about you, but I'm sick and tired of hearing about
   how the tablet pc is dead, ...".

Dave

At 7:02 AM -0700 9/22/04, Google Kreme wrote:
>On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:31:55 -0700, Sander Tekelenburg
><tekelenbeuronet.nl> wrote:
>> I never tried Inkwell, but if it truly is based on Newton then this is
>> surprising to hear.
>
>I don't know why people think it is based on Rosetta. Sure, that
>would make sense, but the recognition is pretty crappy, so I doubt
>Rosetta is involved.

Well, it's not the only possibility for its appearance, but the
Newton's Easter Egg also appears in Inkwell.

 From Tim Rand on MacInTouch [1] (and a variety of other sources):

   "Using Inkwell, write Rosetta! Rosetta! Rosetta!, your
    Mac will recognize the text, and return Hey,that's me!
    in the converted output."

Rosetta was the original codename on the Newton project.

Dave

  [1] http://www.macintouch.com/mosxreader10.2pt12.html