Bento

I'm fairly certain Bento doesn't use SyncServices. Both iCal and Address Book use SQLite databases. Bento uses SQLite... I think it's reading the DBs directly, no sync service in the middle screwing things up. Sounds pretty safe to me.

Why would they let us use a preview version but make no indications as to price? Playing with new software is fun, but I'd like to know if buying it is even a realistic option before I invest any time in it.

Mark Stoneman <http://onmymac.blogspot.com>

 From Jeff Porten's review of Bento:

> This latter point presumes that Bento will be cheap - and it would
> be a decent freebie as part of Mac OS X or iWork. As standalone
> software? I don't expect FileMaker Inc. to ship this at a price
> point where I could recommend it.

According to a report I read somewhere (MacCentral?), the anticipated
retail price is $49, $99 for a five-seat family pack.
--
Sherman

On 11/17/2007 06:14 AM, "Rob Speed" <speed.robgmail.com> wrote:

> I'm fairly certain Bento doesn't use SyncServices. Both iCal and Address Book
> use SQLite databases. Bento uses SQLite... I think it's reading the DBs
> directly, no sync service in the middle screwing things up. Sounds pretty safe
> to me.

Until you have two applications who don't know the other exists trying to
modify the database at the same time. Then it's anything but. Sync Services
are the proper way to have multiple applications share calendaring and
address book data. That way the data storage is independent of the access
methods.

--
John C. Welch

On 2007-11-18, at 01:14, Rob Speed wrote:

> I'm fairly certain Bento doesn't use SyncServices. Both iCal and
> Address Book use SQLite databases. Bento uses SQLite... I think it's
> reading the DBs directly, no sync service in the middle screwing
> things up. Sounds pretty safe to me.

What makes you think iCal and Address Book use SQLite? If you look at
their structures on disk iCal is iCalendar with a few extras, and
Address Book looks proprietary--as opposed to SQLite which always
starts 'SQLite format 3'.

~/Library/Application Support/AddressBook.data
~/Library/Application Support/iCal/Sources/

--On November 17, 2007 4:14:51 AM -0800 Rob Speed <speed.robgmail.com>
wrote:

> I'm fairly certain Bento doesn't use SyncServices. Both iCal and Address
> Book use SQLite databases. Bento uses SQLite... I think it's reading the
> DBs directly, no sync service in the middle screwing things up. Sounds
> pretty safe to me. --

actually that sounds more dangerous to me. syncservices is a public API of
how to get data from another app. directly reading a file, that may be in
the middle of being changed by another app (iCal is rarely closed on my
machine), can really cause issues.

if Apple releases an iCal or AddressBook update that changes the database
setup in the file (say renaming columns or splitting some columns into a
different table), they are fairly obligated to ensure SyncServices can
still get the data out in a format specifed by the API. They are not
obligated to tell FileMaker (or other companies) what the table layout in
files is now.

On Nov 16, 2007, at 9:21 AM, Rob Russell wrote:

> I can't help but feel Jeff has missed a few points in his article,
> the biggest being that this is preview quality software.

Quite possibly. I have different reviewing styles for software which
I use regularly, and new applications -- but Bento is a little of
both: a new application with obvious FileMaker roots.

My approach in this case:

1) read the manual, cover to cover. Whether I read or skim something
is based in part on how well it's written, and in part on the content
being present.

2) fire up the app.

3) play with the app.

4) try to do something with the app.

It's perhaps possible that if I had used a different test case, I'd
have had different results. It's also *very* likely that people who
haven't lived in FileMaker the way I have will also have different
impressions. So my goal wasn't to necessarily do an exhaustive
review, but to state my perspectives and give my opinions. I was
looking for a set of users or needs for which Bento would be perfect
-- and as you read, I didn't find one.

> The naming of the product as Bento and having it at it's own domain,
> to me, clearly indicates that this is not FileMaker and it should not
> necessarily be compared to FileMaker.

Well, yes, but that's the marketing angle. From my perspective, Bento
definitely quacked like a FileMaker duck, even if it's dressed up like
a chicken. And I'll invite you to compare the Bento manual to the
FileMaker manual... that's really where the tone was set for my
interaction with the software.

> His first premise of "what I can't do with it" is novel and
> interesting, but I think flawed. What is it positioned to do?

Well -- that's exactly it. I don't think Bento is positioned to do
much of anything well, and my gut instinct is that FMI feels exactly
the same way about it. It's not their style to release free previews
with (apparently) long lead times to the official release (if the
expiration date has anything to do with it). I think they tried to
build a "database for the rest of us", and I think they failed.

> Does it do that? Who cares if FileMaker (Excel or anything else) is
> easier/
> harder/different if it's not positioned for such comparisons.

You should care if, by not caring, you set out to do something in
Bento and you end up tearing your hair out pounding a square peg into
a round hole. Take my example about using Address Book to store money
people owe you -- I gotta tell you, beneath the scenes and with a
little AppleScript, the Address Book architecture is a damn fine place
to do something like that *provided* you have programming chops to try
it. The difference is that Apple doesn't invite non-programmers to
play in that field -- and the danger is that Bento does.

It's quite possible that, *because* I'm a FileMaker guy, I missed the
point, and someone entirely new to databases will grok Bento
immediately and love it for all the functionality that I couldn't
find. In which case, I'm sure that Adam will be glad to publish a
followup article... and honestly, I'll be glad to admit that I'm
wrong, because I *would* like to have a Bento-class database that I
can recommend.

> His comments on UI glitches are barely valid in Beta software. That's
> sort of what Beta means.

This is a religious argument, IMO, but here's my view: FMI is a major
publisher of software. Anything they publish should be seen as their
current best effort, and if they're putting it out there, it's a valid
target for criticism as it currently stands. Likewise, if there are
going to major differences between Bento Preview and Bento 1.0 (i.e.,
if it will actually become something closer to the iWork database I
talked about), then it's probably a Very Bad Idea for them to put out
this preview and give people like me a chance to develop bad
impressions about it.

> But he watched the opening video which mentioned 14 types of
> formatting available (he said so at the start). The manual (which he
> already read) has 3 or 4 references to currency. Hmmm. OK, maybe the
> formatting options could be larger, but it is starting to sound nit-
> picky.

Absolutely, that comment was nitpicky... as was my comment that
Address Book has all sorts of cool functionality that's hidden in its
menus. My thinking is twofold: 1) I grok software far better than the
average person, and 2) Bento seems aimed at an end-user that might
actually be below average in technical ability.

So I read the manual (which most people won't do), and watched the
video once, and at that point, anything which I instantly didn't know
how to do was fair game for commentary. I wouldn't normally mention
that I couldn't figure out I had to close a panel, or that I couldn't
find a scroller option -- but in this case it seemed relevant to
mention anything that gave me difficulty, on the theory that this
suggests that other people would have far more.

(Addendum: I got an email this morning from someone asking me a
technical question. My first thought was, "hey, send me the database
and I'll take a look at it." Then I realized, "wait, I don't even
know if there's a discrete file that acts as a database, or where to
find it." This is sort of what I meant that they took away
functionality without removing complexity -- after spending the same
amount of time with my mythical iWork app I'd expect to know how to do
this.)

>> "Main Window UI and most dialogs" are temporary.
>
> Interesting. Jeff spent a good part of the article discussing the UI.

For software like this, the application *is* the UI, pure and simple.
I guarantee you there's a FileMaker engine running underneath it,
because it just *felt* like FileMaker to me. If I negatively reviewed
anything that's going to be torn out and redone for the "official"
release, and it's core to the end-user experience, then FMI should
have released Bento as an NDA beta.

As I said in the article, I also don't know how much Bento will cost.
If it's dirt cheap, yeah, I can think of reasons I'd recommend it. If
it's $50, I'd have to see what templates ship with the 1.0 version.
If it's $100, I'd tell people to buy FileMaker. As it stands, and as
I said, I have trouble recommending it even while it's free.

> Fair enough, though this is not really a tool that Developers like us
> will be involved with. And that is part of my thinking - the point of
> the software is not for the clients we deal with.

Some of my "clients" are my eightyish next-door neighbor, my friend's
college-age daughter, etc. These are folks who need databases but
don't know that they do. That's whom I'd like to have a Bento-class
product to recommend to. My thinking is, if they need me to build it
for them, it's not doing the job.

You just made me think of something, though: if Bento had a point-and-
click interface to download *other people's* templates as a global
library of prebuilt options, and it was as easy to use as Apple widget
download, then yeah, there could be something really useful here.

> The initial talk about Bento on the web (e.g. Daniel Jalkut, John
> Gruber, etc) is interesting and surprising.

Honestly, haven't read it yet -- and I'm also curious to see where we
agree and disagree.

Best,
Jeff

I agree all the way down the line with Rob Russell's points about the
review (see the top of this thread, or email readers click
<<a href="/webx?13@@.3cb8558d">sumware, "Bento" #, 16 Nov 2007 6:21 am</a>>).

Even from my standpoint of someone who has publicly criticized the
FileMaker product lines and FileMaker Inc. itself in recent years, I
would defend this product release (Bento, *not* FMP 9!) as an ingenious
foray into creating a truly easy-to-use personal application for the
"roll your own" set. FMP stopped being easy for do-it-yourselfers
beginning with FMP 7 and it has only gotten harder and harder for
non-developers to use what is still touted as an "easy to use database".

My best hope for FMI (because I certainly do not wish them ill) and for
all my good friends who still use it as their development tool, is that
Bento takes off, Bento goes x-plat, and then FMI can put more resources
into making the FileMaker product line a true development platform. In
its current incarnation, it falls horribly short. (But I have the utmost
respect for those who still have the patience to jump through the hoops
one must jump through to develop sophisticated applications with it. I
simply no longer count myself among them, but am watching FMP's
evolution with continuing interest.)

kazar

On 20-Nov-2007, at 04:32, Datatude wrote:
> Even from my standpoint of someone who has publicly criticized the
> FileMaker product lines and FileMaker Inc. itself in recent years, I
> would defend this product release (Bento, *not* FMP 9!) as an
> ingenious
> foray into creating a truly easy-to-use personal application for the
> "roll your own" set.

Really? I mean, I downloaded it, played with it. Couldn't really get
it to DO anything useful. I mean, ok, it gave me a DB look at my
address book. And?

> My best hope for FMI (because I certainly do not wish them ill) and
> for
> all my good friends who still use it as their development tool, is
> that
> Bento takes off,

I think the idea of Bento is a good one. I think they need to
approach it as a "database for the rest of US" instead of as a
"DATABASE for the rest of us" if you take my meaning. They still
seemed to be hung up on tables and views and the underlying DB
structure and that's not what it should be. It needs to be iDatabse
to succeed and it needs to pass the grandma test. That is, someone
who is not computer savvy needs to be able to sit down and use it to
make something useful, sorta like what Pages does. Bento is not
there, and it doesn't look like that's where it's going.

I mean, even with the intro video they start off talking about fields
and records, tables and forms. I think that's a mistake right there.

The database in Apple Works satisfied my needs. Last year I made a list of books which I donated to a local college, but I found that existing databases for books included an item for the ISBN number, which would have accessed data on author, title, publisher, pages, etc., but my books were too old to have such a number. With Apple Works it was reasonably easy to define the fields to describe the books. In a brief examination of Bento, I wonder if I would been able to select or alter Bento’s suggested fields. I am sorry that Apple will not longer support Apple Works in Leopard

>The database in Apple Works satisfied my needs.
>Last year I made a list of books which I donated
>to a local college, but I found that existing
>databases for books included an item for the
>ISBN number, which would have accessed data on
>author, title, publisher, pages, etc., but my
>books were too old to have such a number. With
>Apple Works it was reasonably easy to define the
>fields to describe the books. In a brief
>examination of Bento, I wonder if I would been
>able to select or alter Bento’s suggested
>fields. I am sorry that Apple will not longer
>support Apple Works in Leopard
>--
>If you want to unsubscribe or change your
>address, use this link:
>http://emperor.tidbits.com/webx?unsub.3c3f6899!u=30cb92fe

AppleWorks 6.2.9 works just fine on an Intel Duo
Core with Leopard! Just because Apple no longer
sells AppleWorks does not mean it does not work
in Leopard. I use it all the time.

Larry

On 2007-11-20 8:40 PM, LewisGmail wrote:
> On 20-Nov-2007, at 04:32, Datatude wrote:
>
>> My best hope for FMI (because I certainly do not wish them ill) and
>> for
>> all my good friends who still use it as their development tool, is
>> that
>> Bento takes off,
>
> I think the idea of Bento is a good one. I think they need to
> approach it as a "database for the rest of US" instead of as a
> "DATABASE for the rest of us" if you take my meaning. They still
> seemed to be hung up on tables and views and the underlying DB
> structure and that's not what it should be. It needs to be iDatabse
> to succeed and it needs to pass the grandma test. That is, someone
> who is not computer savvy needs to be able to sit down and use it to
> make something useful, sorta like what Pages does. Bento is not
> there, and it doesn't look like that's where it's going.
>
> I mean, even with the intro video they start off talking about fields
> and records, tables and forms. I think that's a mistake right there.

Now there's a review that is to the point. I have not even used Bento
since I do not yet have Leopard installed, and did not mean to imply
that I approve it as being *successful* at creating software that is
easy for end users... I meant only to applaud the *effort* to do so
which perhaps implies a recognition on FMI's part that FMP is neither an
easy end-users db nor a sophisticated development platform and that they
have to do something about this lack of identity in their product. For
the past several years they have attempted to market their line both to
IT and to Joe's Bait & Tackle Shop. Perhaps Joe could use Bento, and
developers might get, hmmmm, events? Data/schema separation? Regexp?
Something other than an anemic db engine? Transactions & rollback? A
simple bit to turn on audit trail? (Could go on with dozens more
examples of "what's missing".)

 As per my second post in this thread, sent a few minutes ago (which was
largely a rehash of my first post quoted above [why does it take 1-2
days for posts to this list to be distributed??]) I added:

> Meanwhile, it would be interesting to read a review of Bento by
> someone who is part of the target market -- a non-developer who wishes
> to put together "libraries" of documents and data for various personal
> and light-business purposes.

Your point about Bento not passing "the grandma test" may be exactly the
kind of critique that FMI wants and needs to hear. But Jeff Porten's
perspective: "There's no method that I could discover to filter within
the relationships I had created - so no chance of seeing only the No
Limit games that I played at the Borgata. This to me is the key reason
for creating relations, so I can cross-tabulate and slice-and-dice my
data ...", IMO, really misses the mark. I believe Bento's intended
market is people who filter their coffee, not database relationships,
and who slice-and-dice their veggies, not their data. It's a tool to
store and look up "stuff".

kazar

On 26-Nov-2007, at 01:25, Datatude wrote:
> On 2007-11-20 8:40 PM, LewisGmail wrote:
[stuff]

> Your point about Bento not passing "the grandma test" may be exactly
> the
> kind of critique that FMI wants and needs to hear.

Well, to give a very specific example, when I was looking at their
home inventory template all I could think was, "You know, Delicious
Library already did this right, why does this suck so much?"

> I believe Bento's intended market is people who filter their coffee,
> not database relationships, and who slice-and-dice their veggies,
> not their data. It's a tool to
> store and look up "stuff".

Oh no, I disagree. The role of a database, whether someone knows it
or not, is to slice and dice the data. The point is, does the
software make that easy to do or hard to do. For example, Delicious
Library's checkout procedure, which makes it trivial to keep track of
what movies and books you've lent, and to whom, is a slice and dice
feature.

The best database for the non db monkey is one that doesn't LOOK like
a database. What we need is a DL that does more than movies and books.

I agree all the way down the line with Rob Russell's points about the
review (see the top of this thread, or email readers click
<<a href="/webx?13@@.3cb8558d">sumware, "Bento" #, 16 Nov 2007 6:21 am</a>>).

Even from my standpoint of someone who has publicly criticized the
FileMaker product lines and FileMaker Inc. itself in recent years, I
would defend this product release (Bento, *not* FMP 9!) as an ingenious
foray into creating a truly easy-to-use personal application for the
"roll your own" set. FMP stopped being easy for do-it-yourselfers
beginning with FMP 7 and it has only gotten harder and harder for
non-developers to use what is still touted as an "easy to use database".

My best hope for FMI (because I certainly do not wish them ill) and for
all my good friends who still use it as their development tool, is that
Bento takes off, Bento goes x-plat, and then FMI can put more resources
into making the FileMaker product line a true development platform. In
its current incarnation, it falls very short.

Meanwhile, it would be interesting to read a review of Bento by someone
who is part of the target market -- a non-developer who wishes to put
together "libraries" of documents and data for various personal and
light-business purposes.

kazar

Can somebody on the list tell me how it compares with iData2, that seems to me to be *the* "DB for the rest of us"? Thank you

On 16-Nov-07, at 6:21 AM, Rob Russell wrote:

> I can't help but feel Jeff has missed a few points in his article.....

> I'm not sure I will have a need for Bento, but we shall see. My
> father-in-law might.

"Bento" is lunch in Japanese. "BentoBako" is lunch box: which might
be a better name?

What is "Bento" be in other languages?

George

On 12/13/07, eytan <eithnfree.fr> wrote:
> Can somebody on the list tell me how it compares with iData2, that seems to me to be *the* "DB for the rest of us"? Thank you

iData2 is a free-form database that supports fields. Think of it as
rich text index cards on which you can print out header fields to make
sorting/searching easier. The appearance of your data is fairly
bare-bones, and lacks the flashy interface of Bento or some other
customizable database front end. (Which is not necessarily a weakness
-- Bento's gone way off the other direction in this regard)

Bento is CLOSER to a true database, as you can relate information from
one table (DB in bento's terms) to another (in a very limited and
rigid fashion). Bento can also relate to iCal and Address Book data,
which is a nifty trick and may be just the thing if you want to extend
either of those applications by adding metadata to existing contacts
or events.

Both have more in common with a snippet keeper like Yojimbo than a
relational database, with Bento being more of a DB, and iData being
more of a snippet keeper. Another key difference in implementation is
that Bento has only a single database, effectively, so your one view
shows all your different data sets. With iData, you can have multiple
files and open each directly from the Finder. (I leave it to you to
decide if that's beneficial or not)

Both have free demos, so I recommend trying them out.

--
Nik

nikinik.net | http://inik.net | http://notions.inik.net

> "Bento" is lunch in Japanese. "BentoBako" is lunch box: which might
> be a better name?

At the risk of sounding hopelessly pedantic (but then, I am a teacher; I am
a professional pedant), the Japanese for lunch is "o-hiru-gohan." Any meal
served in a pre-packed box format is called "bento" (or, usually,
"o-bento"); lunches are most typically served as o-bento, but the two are
not the same. The box that the bento is served in, as well as the boxes that
housewives often put their husbands' packed rice-and-fish lunches in, are
"o-bento-bako."

There. I feel better now.

Steve

Steve McCabe
School of Languages, International Studies
University of Canberra
Canberra, ACT, Australia

As a long-time user of FileMaker to create and manage simple databases (mostly bibliographies, filmographies, and discographies), I thought I would give Bento a trial. I don't do complex searches, need cross-relations or elaborate functions; and I was tired of FM's clunky interface.

To my surprise, Bento did not make importing my data from FM 6 (the last version I own) particularly easy. One would have thought that Bento could open the native format of FM, but no--you have to export the data just like from any other database.

And it has to be in the right format. If you dig around long enough you'll discover the data to be exported has to be in "CSV" format, a fact that should be featured boldly upfront in every context where Help refers to importing data. But it doesn't define what "CSV" is except by example, which led me to figure out that this is what FM6 calls "Comma-Separated Text." How hard would it be to explain in Help how to prepare FM6 data for import into Bento? Are they actually trying to discourage FM users from switching?

I'm still struggling to understand the distinction between a library and a collection. I'm sure I'll master it eventually, but the incomplete way these terms are explained in the documentation is a good example of why Bento is half-baked.

After reading the documentation and trying the program a bit, I must admit I'm attracted to the simplicity and handsomeness of Bento; but it has a killer flaw that will keep me from adopting it. I often have fields that must have more text in them than can be displayed in a single line within the width of the field box. In other words, I need the text to wrap. With a good deal of work in FM6 I could create sliding fields that would close up when extra space wasn't needed but shrink up to a single line when that's all that's needed. Bento doesn't seem to offer anything comparable.

What would be ideal would be an option to make a field automatically expand to display all the data it contains, properly wrapped. If they add this one feature, I'll buy Bento.