French in Leopard

Le 18 oct. 07 à 12:37, Morin Bertrand a écrit :

> Leopard is coming with many add-ons; but there does not seem to be
> any new support tools for French, especially a Dictionary and a
> Thesaurus (as in the English language).

That's what I'm wondering since the list of new functions is out. OK,
fine, better even English support is cool but what about the others ?
And not only French. I don't know the actual ranks of the different
Apple markets but since Japan went ahead of France some years ago it
must be something like 1/USA 2/Japan 3/France 4/UK (UK may be ahead).
I can't find the data for today. Now the point is: if OS X is to be
truly multilingual, it's not only the OS, it's not only the apps for
developers who can make multiple language versions, it's also in the
utilities Apple provides. Now, either Apple doesn't want/don't think
it's important, or can't secure a deal for other languages. If it's
the first possibility, then, time for a change, When France was the
second market for Apple, in the times of Classic, there was even less
support. If it's the second, they should speak out about it.

I wonder how much time Apple will take to have some chinese tools
(mandarin, simplified) (I don't think there is), if it's a market
share issue, we'll see them before French, German or Italian. But the
English centered business is really really wrong in image terms for
all non native English speakers.

BTW, the OS integrated correction tool (up to tiger) is not very
good, especially at deciphering accents in French, it must be the
same in all accent laden languages supported, there's something wrong
there as we can't rely on it 100% for the basic help it provides, not
to mention the ridiculous multilingual support in correction where we
should be able to choose the language libraries we need, not either
one language or all. Also, there are open source tools available, why
reinvent the wheel? Apple could just integrate them to the OS,
there's more languages supported and more options.

Just my two cents of ranting…

And I've still not posted my opinions upon the Apple Expo Paris and
how it's slowly being killed…

Denis H]
440network.com
MacMusic.org

I am a French-Canadian speaker, hence French is ma native language. Although Mac OS provides close to excellent support, especially in the GUI, it does not seem to offer a French Dictionary/Thesaurus with the system. One has access (automatically) to the application Dictionary.app (version 1.01) from Apple—the OXFORD bundle. It is the dictionay that pops up whenever I choose to look up a word, unless I install a differant external application (I presently mainly use an integrated application (ANTIDOTE) which interfaces rather well with most writing tools, and do the necessary work to get there. Is there a way to get Apple to provide one way to add/replace the OXFORD set, unless there is a new solution in Leopard. Comments or solutions would be appreciated.

BAM

> Now the point is: if OS X is to be truly multilingual, it's not
> only the OS, it's not only the apps for developers who can make
> multiple language versions, it's also in the utilities Apple provides.
>

Good point. The same holds true, e.g., for useful Dashboard widgets
like the Business and People "phone books" or the ESPN sports ticker
(which doesn't even cover soccer...), which are only useful for
accessing US-focused information. Why not include a few localized
versions, that not only feature a localized UI, but also use
"localized" resources to gather the information to be displayed?

As an example, there's a nifty phone book widget for Germany's "Das
Telefonbuch." Why doesn't Apple include a few select widgets like
this one on the OS X installer CD, instead of having non-US users go
hunting for them online.

<http://www.apple.com/downloads/dashboard/search/
dastelefonbuchwidget.html>


> not to mention the ridiculous multilingual support in correction
> where we should be able to choose the language libraries we need,
> not either one language or all.
>

Well, at least you can choose the language to be used for
spellchecking inside an application by select "Spelling…" from the
Edit menu and choosing the language from the pop-up menu in the lower
left.


> And I've still not posted my opinions upon the Apple Expo Paris and
> how it's slowly being killed…
>

It'd be grand to see at least one European Apple-related show be
"graced" by an official Apple keynote.

However, the overall success of a trade show is determined in large
part by the way the organizer -- e.g., Reed Exhibitions for Apple
Expo -- handles it. If, as is often claimed, Apple Expo Paris is
supposed to be _the_ major European Mac-related show, offering all
information resources at the show in French only simply will not cut
it. Wouldn't have been too difficult to include a single-page
overview in English for international visitors, but, no, they chose
to keep it strictly French only. It's details like these that eat
away at a trade show's importance, not (only) the actions of its key
exhibitor.

Case in point: Apple's booth at the Paris Expo was pretty impressive,
well-staffed, and featured current products (yes, the iPod Touch
_was_ there). Also, Apple contributed to some of the "class room"
sessions, e.g., on Logic Studio. With the exception of the missing
keynote, I don't think there is much to complain about when it comes
to Apple's participation in the show, at least not from an average
visitor's perspective.

On a side note, since your message includes a link to MacMusic.org: I
was positively impressed by the music tech booth at Apple Expo this
year. A few years ago, you'd be lucky to find a single music
technology reseller booth at any Mac show; now there was a dedicated
music production area with demo stations by a number of companies who
were eager to show off their products. There's definitely no "slow
killing" going on in that area. ;)

<http://www.oreillynet.com/digitalmedia/blog/2007/10/
musique_sur_une_pomme_amricain.html>


Regards,

Jochen.


--
Jochen Wolters
jochenpolytropia.com | http://polytropia.com | jochenwolters (Skype)

On 22-Oct-2007, at 08:00, Jochen Wolters wrote:
> Wouldn't have been too difficult to include a single-page
> overview in English for international visitors, but, no, they chose
> to keep it strictly French only.

I was under the impression that the French, in a desperate and doomed
attempt to 'preserve' their dying language had mad all publication of
non-French illegal in the country?

I mean, can't you get fined for SAYING "blue jeans"? And I know
several websites have had to remove English from them at the
insistence of the language police.

[Allowing this and one other rebuttal through - then no more on this topic. -Adam]

Le 23 oct. 07 à 14:47, Google Kreme a écrit :

> I was under the impression that the French, in a desperate and doomed
> attempt to 'preserve' their dying language had made all publication of
> non-French illegal in the country?

I would not tell from a language talked every day by hundreds of
millions to be dying… Is it not normal that anything published in a
country should first in its national language(s)?

> I mean, can't you get fined for SAYING "blue jeans"? And I know
> several websites have had to remove English from them at the
> insistence of the language police.

It's not as you write and certainly not on the Net.

Anything published in France must be available in French (books,
advertisement, manuals), it's OUR national language btw, just as most
of the world does not speak English. So if you don't comply there's a
trial and a fine. Now, there are no language police on the Net, maybe
in your country? We have more issues of "police" on the web with our
laws on public insults, slandering, and now the press law corpus but
mind that it's for now the USA who try to apply their laws and ways
to the whole net (see all the washington stories on the NIC,
electronic ID and so on)

The issue in this thread was to put Apple up to its supposed
standards and give the languages include a bit of consideration
beyond the omnipotent English we are not all talking IRL, fortunately
for the beauty of the world. It's adding trade value, not running
some archeological study if you mind.

Denis H]
Je hais le ouifi <= horror, some misspelled French

On 23/10/07 14:47, "Google Kreme" <gkremegmail.com> wrote:

> I was under the impression that the French, in a desperate and doomed
> attempt to 'preserve' their dying language had mad all publication of
> non-French illegal in the country?
>
> I mean, can't you get fined for SAYING "blue jeans"? And I know
> several websites have had to remove English from them at the
> insistence of the language police.

Now who fed the troll again, despite the warnings? You can shout blue jeans
all you want using a public address system in front of the Eiffel Tower,
you'll eventually only get fined for the disturbance, not for the words
themselves.

The French language is no more dying than Apple is, au contraire. Several
Web sites? Facts please, not hearsay. And the law requiring the use of
French words only applies to documents produced by the State or about public
affairs, as well as some companies' internal documents and adverts (see
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toubon_law>). Hardly the case here.


[OK, we've had the appropriate rebuttal, so no more on this aspect of the thread. -Adam]


-Thomas

Le 22 oct. 07 à 16:00, Jochen Wolters a écrit :

>> Now the point is: if OS X is to be truly multilingual, it's not
>> only the OS, it's not only the apps for developers who can make
>> multiple language versions, it's also in the utilities Apple
>> provides.
> Good point. The same holds true, e.g., for useful Dashboard widgets
> like the Business and People "phone books" or the ESPN sports ticker
> (which doesn't even cover soccer...), which are only useful for
> accessing US-focused information. Why not include a few localized
> versions, that not only feature a localized UI, but also use
> "localized" resources to gather the information to be displayed?

One funny thing in Apple own widgets was you had to precise "Paris,
France" in the weather forecast one, as Paris only would link you to
some of the 17 US Paris there is… %) I'm sure it must be fun to try
Rome, London, Oxford or else…

> As an example, there's a nifty phone book widget for Germany's "Das
> Telefonbuch." Why doesn't Apple include a few select widgets like
> this one on the OS X installer CD, instead of having non-US users go
> hunting for them online.

There's a right reason behind that. The French and Swiss equivalent
are developed by the national operators and Apple lawyers have more
stupid things to do than ask the right to include them…

> Well, at least you can choose the language to be used for
> spellchecking inside an application by select "Spelling…" from the
> Edit menu and choosing the language from the pop-up menu in the lower
> left.

For example, I use extensively French, of course, and English. As I
don't want to change the setting all the time, it's always in
"multilingual", but it does not do. When set in multilingual, it
can't find for some reason all the French words with accents there is
(that it recognize well when you type them anyway…). It's [censored]
annoying! It means the tool scrolls the non accented words only in
multilingual which is insane.

Using multilingual means also that some mistyping in French for
example can be leggit words in Spanish or Italian… So there's no
correction for you… haha!

So if we had this accent bug corrected and the ability to choose
amongst which languages we want the tool to work, it'd be a nice change.

> It'd be grand to see at least one European Apple-related show be
> "graced" by an official Apple keynote.

We have had nearly every year. I'll dive thru my rant text fast and
post it. It's time you have the opinion from an actual Apple Expo
Paris show attendant for more than 15 years… just some ranting
snippets below ;)

> However, the overall success of a trade show is determined in large
> part by the way the organizer -- e.g., Reed Exhibitions for Apple
> Expo -- handles it. If, as is often claimed, Apple Expo Paris is
> supposed to be _the_ major European Mac-related show, offering all
> information resources at the show in French only simply will not cut
> it. Wouldn't have been too difficult to include a single-page
> overview in English for international visitors, but, no, they chose
> to keep it strictly French only. It's details like these that eat
> away at a trade show's importance, not (only) the actions of its key
> exhibitor.

There's several points beyond this one that need to be address, the
prominent one being what Apple does really want with the show?

> Case in point: Apple's booth at the Paris Expo was pretty impressive,
> well-staffed, and featured current products (yes, the iPod Touch
> _was_ there).

Not the first day till late…

No iPhones…
No Leopard…

Mind that most visitors not into the iPod stuff were around for the
invisible things…

> Also, Apple contributed to some of the "class room"
> sessions, e.g., on Logic Studio. With the exception of the missing
> keynote, I don't think there is much to complain about when it comes
> to Apple's participation in the show, at least not from an average
> visitor's perspective.

Applestore booth gets bigger and bigger… but Apple product range is
less and less complete on the booth. You could search the Xserve, the
mac pro… there was none on Apple booth.

> On a side note, since your message includes a link to MacMusic.org: I
> was positively impressed by the music tech booth at Apple Expo this
> year. A few years ago, you'd be lucky to find a single music
> technology reseller booth at any Mac show; now there was a dedicated
> music production area with demo stations by a number of companies who
> were eager to show off their products. There's definitely no "slow
> killing" going on in that area. ;)

In fact it was a return of the music village, it had been dropped for
an unkown reason.

I'll go thru my rant, as I wrote above, and post it fast. ;)


Denis H]
Je hais le ouifi