Plastic bags vs Canvas Bags

Plastic bags vs Canvas Bags isn't, in all contexts, a binary choice.
At our local supermarket, I can, on day 1, get paper bags rather than
plastic. Then, on several subsequent visits, I can reuse the bags.
Eventually a bag will wear out, be recycled, and be replaced with a
fresh one.

That's what I *can* do. What I do, unfortunately, is select paper or
plastic depending on what is in my cart (or even paper, plus plastic
for a small overflow). Then I save the paper for use as an
underliner for the cat's food and water area, and other such purposes.

I have bags in the car--I never remember to take them in.

   --John

On 8/14/07 3:20 AM, "Datatude" <techlistsdatatude.net> cleverly wrote:

> Paul Bradstreet wrote, On 8/13/07 4:46 PM:
>>
>> The damage plastic bags do to curious sea-life is enough to make me switch.
>> Nothing else persists, or kills, like countless thousands of plastic bags
>> blown into the ocean.

I can speak with a bit of authority on this as I work on an ocean going
ship. The estimate a few years ago was that approx. 10,000 plastic bags went
into the ocean from ships daily.

International regs now prohibit any dumping of plastic bags or other
plastics. We send all of our plastic ashore, and have few plastic bags on
board any more.

Whether foreign ships are following the regs is another question, but at
least the laws are in place.

Bruce

On Aug 10, 2007, at 5:54 AM, David Ross wrote:

> And this is a subject where I have to ask. Is a canvas bag "better"?

They just did a study in Ireland where plastic grocery bags were
banned. There was a marked increase in people buying plastic bags for
other uses (like garbage bags). Seems like you can't win on this issue.

BTW, recycling plants hate those plastic grocery bags because they
clog their equipment. And after a rain, the beaches around here are
covered with them.

--
David Weintraub
davidweintraubworld.net
davidweintraub.name

On 8/13/07 15:46 PM, "David Weintraub" <davidweintraub.name> wrote:

>
>> And this is a subject where I have to ask. Is a canvas bag "better"?
>
> They just did a study in Ireland where plastic grocery bags were
> banned. There was a marked increase in people buying plastic bags for
> other uses (like garbage bags). Seems like you can't win on this issue.
>
> BTW, recycling plants hate those plastic grocery bags because they
> clog their equipment. And after a rain, the beaches around here are
> covered with them.

Not as long as plastic is all petroleum sourced. Starch-based plastic is
coming along, but it's almost ignored by most tree-huggers. Which makes no
sense. Gripe about friggin' gasoline whilst surrounding yourself with
petroleum products. Oy

--
John C. Welch

> Message #11: Re: Freecycle: Disposing of Good Old Stuff
> Posted by: dr Date: Aug 10, 2007.
>
> sgoldhargmail.com wrote:
> > I have put in a lot of effort over the years into various recycling
> > and reducing and giving away, but I don't believe that this type of
> > sporadic individual effort makes a dent in what should be done
> matter-
> > of-factly at an entirely different level. "Reduce" isn't going to
> > work if the entire economy is based on urging people to buy more and
> > for companies to make/sell more, whether or not anyone needs the
> > stuff. Voluntary is all very well and good up to a point. I also
> take
> > my own canvas bag to the grocery store -- it doesn't stop the other
> > 100 billion plastic bags from being produced and tossed out every
> year.
> >
> And this is a subject where I have to ask. Is a canvas bag "better"?
>
> What is the life cycle cost & energy footprint of the canvas bag
> compared to the the plastic ones? It certainly costs more to make
> and ship the canvas bag. And you have to wash it periodically. (If
> you don't think this is much of an issue, you don't have kids and/
> or pets.) And if you have a family of any size you get to own 4 to
> 8 of them.
>
> I've always suspected that the manufacturing, distribution,
> cleaning, and at some point disposal of such bags is harder on the
> environment than the plastic ones. Do we include subsidies for home
> grown cotton or is this bag made in China and shipped on a cargo
> ship across the Pacific? But to be honest this is based on my
> background and intuition, not on facts. And I also understand these
> costs can vary. Using water in Las Vegas or around Raleigh where I
> live is a really big deal. Using water to wash clothes in New
> Orleans isn't nearly as much of a big deal. Which also puts an
> interesting twist on the cloth vs. disposable diaper discussion.
>
I don't believe the canvas bags/cloth diapers is an apt comparison,
but I can see how a life-cycle study of bags could come up in favor
of throwaway packaging in the context of North American cleanliness
standards, i.e., the canvas bag would be washed after every use and
then discarded as soon as it displayed an unremovable stain or two.
That's not what I meant and so maybe the analogy doesn't fit -- I was
simply trying to make the point that "reducing" isn't going to happen
if it's just a question of individual choice. Being wasteful is the
engine that runs this economy and most people don't worry about waste
except when it comes to cost -- I mean, is it really okay for people
in New Orleans to waste water? I don't think so, but it doesn't cost
them as much as in Las Vegas so they probably don't even perceive it
as wasteful.

The same goes for computer technology/forced obsolescence -- when
people complain about their electronic gear breaking two days after
the warrantee expired, they're mostly worried about what the
equipment cost them, not about depositing more junk into landfills or
getting new materials mined and processed and shipped and assembled
into the new gadget they will soon own. And so the computer/
electronics industry answer to the problem is to offer extended
warrantees -- that's effectively hiking the price of an item for
being inferior, i.e., short-lived and unreliable. But it has become
perfectly acceptable and I think that's another setback for reducing/
reusing of any kind. Maybe disposing of good old stuff works right
now, but I doubt we would have anything from the current crop that we
could give away in ten years.

> I don't believe the canvas bags/cloth diapers is an apt comparison,

The canvas bag vs. diapers was just what I meant. This is where I hate "universal" fixes, solutions, rules, etc... When an area has lots of water it should be used over other scarce resources. When an area has little water it should be treated as the rare thing that it is. Water where I grew up in Paducah KY, was flat out more available than it is in Las Vegas or Raleigh, where I've been for 20 years. That doesn't mean folks in Paducah should waste it but they also should look at things differently than folks Raleigh. The area around Paducah (say 100 miles south and west) is basically gravel. Around here in Raleigh it's clay. Raleigh is short on water. Paducah isn't. So maybe, JUST MAYBE, landfills in Raleigh should be utilized more than in Paducah. Which means that a realistic look at cloth vs disposable and plastic vs paper vs bring your own might truly give different results.

As to the issue of cleanliness, if you have small kids and/or pets all the cloth you own is basically a lint, fur, and dust/dirt trap. And you have to keep at it or you'll have interesting objects drifting about your house in general and in your food in particular. I grew up mowing fields for my teenage spending money and have drank many a soda from a can that had spend most of the day in a tractor tool box but I tend to be repulsed by pet fur in my food.

As to the folks talking about plastic bags in the ocean, I agree this is a very bad situation. But is it worse than the affects of cotton crop runoff, manufacturing runoff, power plan smog, wash water runoff, smog from cargo ship traffic, etc... all which happen during the life cycle of these plastic bags? Garbage scowls with no covers are a dumb thing. But covers cost money and basically that's taxes and read my next paragraph.

> The same goes for computer technology/forced obsolescence -- when
> people complain about their electronic gear breaking two days after
> the warrantee expired, they're mostly worried about what the
> equipment cost them, not about depositing more junk into landfills or
> getting new materials mined and processed and shipped and assembled
> into the new gadget they will soon own. And so the computer/
> electronics industry answer to the problem is to offer extended
> warrantees -- that's effectively hiking the price of an item for
> being inferior, i.e., short-lived and unreliable. But it has become
> perfectly acceptable and I think that's another setback for reducing/
> reusing of any kind. Maybe disposing of good old stuff works right
> now, but I doubt we would have anything from the current crop that we
> could give away in ten years.

People want the purchase price cheap. I see it over and over again. Unless you regulate warranties they tend to peter out at about 1 year because that allows the price point to be lower. And you'll sell more. I don't know about the rest of the world but in the US folks just refuse to understand, we are doing a lousy job of teaching economics in school, believe bad things in the future happen to others, whatever. Cheaper at point of sale is what sells.

David Ross

>
> As to the folks talking about plastic bags in the ocean, I agree
> this is a very bad situation. But is it worse than the affects of
> cotton crop runoff, manufacturing runoff, power plan smog, wash
> water runoff, smog from cargo ship traffic, etc... all which happen
> during the life cycle of these plastic bags? Garbage scowls with no
> covers are a dumb thing. But covers cost money and basically that's
> taxes and read my next paragraph.

The question is, do plastic bags just pop up at the store without any
manufacturing runoff, power plan smog etc...? I assume they don't use
pesticides and they don't lose us topsoil, but they must make up for
it in other ways.

> People want the purchase price cheap. I see it over and over again.
> Unless you regulate warranties they tend to peter out at about 1
> year because that allows the price point to be lower. And you'll
> sell more. I don't know about the rest of the world but in the US
> folks just refuse to understand, we are doing a lousy job of
> teaching economics in school, believe bad things in the future
> happen to others, whatever. Cheaper at point of sale is what sells.

I agree but cheap in the case of electronic equipment is an illusion,
we got talked into it and/or have no choice but to go along with it.
If you have to replace something that costs hundreds or thousands
every two three years, it's not cheap. I still have Nikon camera in
good working order that I bought decades ago, over the years it cost
maybe $100 in repairs.

On 8/14/07, Datatude <techlistsdatatude.net> wrote:

> Some localities include plastic bags in their recycling programs. If
> yours does not, agitate for them to improve the recycling program. And
> consider bringing your own (canvas or netting) shopping bags to the
> market with you ...

Four years ago I had some quasi-nasty trash that I felt the need to
literally take it to the landfill. For many of us, trash is out of
sight, out of mind. But upon arriving at the landfill I was directed
to take my trash straight up to the fresh dumping area. Upon arrival
to the "processing area" I dismounted my truck and emptied my trash.

I was profoundly struck by the visual sight of a sea of blue plastic
bags waving in the wind. They were all blue. No beige, no white. For
those outside of the US, these are Wal-mart bags and at the time we
were living in the Great Plains, far from water.

No political intent from this post. It was simply a visual that I'll
probably never forget and that we couldn't relate to as a family.
-Rob

        For groceries, we've recently switched to plastic bins sold by the
local grocers. They are designed to fit nicely in the carts and have
handles and straps for carrying. Energy and other costs of manufacture
might make them not as environmentally friendly as a cotton bag (of which
we have a few which we also use), but boy-oh-boy are they so much more
convenient than bags. For a family of four (inclulding a grade 2 and a
grade -1 student) we can fit a week's worth of groceries into less than
three of them (often it fits into two) and then loading the car from the
cart and the house from the car just require one or two trips - similarly
for loading the fridge. In fact we use them to haul all sorts of stuff
from the house to the car and back (shoes, balls, beach toys, picnics, etc).

        Now we have the problem of not having enough plastic bags around
for all the miriad of uses that those can be employed for from garbage
wrapping to waterproof lining.


--
* Johann Beda - contact link: <http://xri.net/=j-beda> *
* Johann's MostlyMac Computer Consulting - <http://mmcc.beda.ca/> *

On Aug 16, 2007, at 10:34 AM, Johann Beda wrote:

> Now we have the problem of not having enough plastic bags around
> for all the miriad of uses that those can be employed for from garbage
> wrapping to waterproof lining.

Yes, that's a problem we've seen here in France. I'm not sure exactly
what the law is currently, but plastic grocery bags will eventually
be banned here. They used to be free, and now you have to pay for
them, so we buy big, cloth/plastic shopping bags to do shopping. But
we also have to buy plastic garbage bags, which we didn't before. It
would make more sense to switch to cornstarch bags and give them
away, since the plastic garbage bags you buy probably have _more_
plastic then the free ones you got from supermarkets.


Kirk

The last couple of posts on this topic have been from families with kids, so
I don't feel _entirely_ off-topic by relating that we've reduced our
school's electricity bills by two thirds with solar panels. I aim to double
the number of panels by December 2008.

My point is that the West is developing the technologies to reduce the
coming global issues (regardless of whether they're man-made or cyclical.)
While our school receives accolades for its technological advances and
pedagogies, our work since 1993 to reduce wasted energy and water has
received very little media attention until 2007.

The really nice thing is that we've increased the level of student comfort
in classrooms, using inverter reverse-cycle air-conditioning (unheard of in
WA state schools) and the power bills are still dropping. Now before anyone
hits me with the inevitable criticism of the globe-damaging effects of
air-conditioners, put in a summer in WA, where our temperatures can exceed
43 degrees celsius for ten days at a stretch!

Cheers,

Paul,
W. Australia

On Aug 16, 2007, at 4:34 AM, Johann Beda wrote:
> For a family of four (inclulding a grade 2 and a grade -1 student)
> we can fit a week's worth of groceries into less than three of them
> (often it fits into two) and then loading the car from the cart and
> the house from the car just require one or two trips - similarly
> for loading the fridge.

Where do you get these plastic bags?

My biggest complaint about plastic bags is how small they are. They
can hold a box of cereal and maybe two bags of fruit. I can usually
fit into a single paper bag the contents of two or three plastic
ones. And paper bags don't tumble over in my car because they have a
flat bottom.

Also, how in the heck to you get a weeks worth of groceries into only
two or three plastic bags? I have a family of five, and I pack my car
to the brim with food when I go shopping (and sometimes I have to go
twice per week. We go through about 15 pounds of produce per week,
and about 120 pieces of fruit. (We buy very little processed foods,
so much of our diet is fruits and vegetables).

Of course, I've got two teenage boys and another who's 20, so that
might be part of the problem. Good kids, but boy can they pack it
away. And, they're skinny too. My oldest is 6'2" and weighs less than
130 pounds.

David Weintraub
davidweintraubworld.net
davidweintraub.name

On 15/08/2007 11:09 PM, "David Ross" <drdavidrossconsultant.com> spake
thus:

> Garbage scowls with no covers are a dumb thing.

From an environmental point of view, yes, but from the economic point of
view of the owners of the scows, not having covers is a very smart thing
because adding covers costs them more. No covers => cheaper construction,
and lower maintenance and less weight => cheaper running costs.

This is of course assuming the company only runs a single bottom line ($$$),
which at present is very likely. If they were running multiple bottom lines,
then putting covers on *would* probably make sense (depending on the bottom
lines they chose).

--
Nigel Stanger, Dunedin, NEW ZEALAND.
http://xri.net/=nigel.stanger

Message #13: Re: Freecycle: Disposing of Good Old Stuff
Posted by: John C. Welch Date: Aug 14, 2007.

>....
> Not as long as plastic is all petroleum sourced. Starch-based plastic is
> coming along, but it's almost ignored by most tree-huggers. Which makes no
> sense. ...

Here's a few examples (from many) of 'tree-huggers' *not* ignoring
(starch-based) plastics. The ease with which I found these (you have
heard of Google, right John?) puts the lie to such plastics being
'almost ignored' in the green movement. I thought the last one
particularly apt... ;)

<http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm?newsid=10995>
<http://archive.greenpeace.org/toxics/pvcdatabase/bad.html>
<http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/04/ecopackaging_fi_3.php>

Regards,

GAM

Nigel Stanger wrote:
> On 15/08/2007 11:09 PM, "David Ross" <drdavidrossconsultant.com> spake
> thus:
>
>> Garbage scowls with no covers are a dumb thing.
>
> From an environmental point of view, yes, but from the economic point of
> view of the owners of the scows, not having covers is a very smart thing
> because adding covers costs them more. No covers => cheaper construction,
> and lower maintenance and less weight => cheaper running costs.
>
> This is of course assuming the company only runs a single bottom line ($$$),
> which at present is very likely. If they were running multiple bottom lines,
> then putting covers on *would* probably make sense (depending on the bottom
> lines they chose).

In most all, if not truly all, of the US garbage is a public function or a publicly regulated function. My comment was meant to imply that the controlling authority should not allow uncovered trash to be hauled via truck, rail, barge, whatever.

Here in NC you'll get pulled over and get a ticket if your "load" is coming out. Garbage or not.

David Ross

On Aug 16, 2007, at 04:34, Glen McAllister wrote:

> Here's a few examples (from many) of 'tree-huggers' *not* ignoring
> (starch-based) plastics. The ease with which I found these (you have
> heard of Google, right John?) puts the lie to such plastics being
> 'almost ignored' in the green movement. I thought the last one
> particularly apt... ;)
>
> <http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm?newsid=10995>
> <http://archive.greenpeace.org/toxics/pvcdatabase/bad.html>
> <http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/04/ecopackaging_fi_3.php>

You missed

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/new_eco_friendly_packaging

which I found to be a truly enlightening story. Yes, I know it's
satire, but the best satire is only a gentle twisting of reality (if
that).

Chris

On 8/17/2007 2:08 AM, "David Weintraub" wrote:
>> For a family of four (inclulding a grade 2 and a grade -1 student)
>> we can fit a week's worth of groceries into less than three of them
>> (often it fits into two) and then loading the car from the cart and
>> the house from the car just require one or two trips - similarly
>> for loading the fridge.
>
> Where do you get these plastic bags?

I'm not sure which ones Johann was talking about, but Costco is now selling
large, reusable plastic bags with cloth handles -- a pack of two is only
$1.79. They're actually nice bags (well, as plastic bags go), and each can
hold the contents of three to four standard plastic grocery bags.

At 2:08 AM -0700 8/17/07, David Weintraub wrote:
>Where do you get these plastic bags?
>
>My biggest complaint about plastic bags is how small they are. They
>can hold a box of cereal and maybe two bags of fruit. I can usually
>fit into a single paper bag the contents of two or three plastic
>ones. And paper bags don't tumble over in my car because they have a
>flat bottom.

        You mis-read is a BIN not a bag. They fit in the cart and the car
very nicely.

<http://www.presidentschoice.ca/FoodAndRecipes/GreatFood/ProductDetails.aspx/id/18755/catid/18755>

--
* Johann Beda

--On August 14, 2007 3:20:49 AM -0700 Tomoharu Nishino
<tomoharunishino.us> wrote:
> So, on balance, IMHO there is ample reason to prefer canvas bags,
> especially if you are talking about a bag made in the U.S. from organic
> cotton.

Or if the US didn't have silly drug laws they could switch back to canvas
made from hemp.

On Aug 21, 2007, at 11:00 AM, Dan Frakes wrote:

>>> For a family of four (inclulding a grade 2 and a grade -1 student)
>>> we can fit a week's worth of groceries into less than three of them
>>> (often it fits into two) and then loading the car from the cart and
>>> the house from the car just require one or two trips - similarly
>>> for loading the fridge.
>>
>> Where do you get these plastic bags?
>
> I'm not sure which ones Johann was talking about, but Costco is now
> selling
> large, reusable plastic bags with cloth handles -- a pack of two is
> only
> $1.79. They're actually nice bags (well, as plastic bags go), and
> each can
> hold the contents of three to four standard plastic grocery bags.

That sounds exactly like what we get here in France. They are
actually cloth bags coated with plastic, or something like that, so
they're pretty sturdy. The first ones we bought are several years old
already.


Kirk