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Thoughts spurred by Loki, Google Street Views, etc.

[kupietz]kupietz - 04:56pm Jun 20, 2007 PST
FileMaker Pro consultant & 20 year Mac enthusiast

This is based on what I read about Loki in Tidbits & on their website, as contrary to the article, the OS X version is not available for download.

I have to cop to being a little disturbed when I read the article on Loki. They sent a truck down my street and recorded my SSID and location?

I wonder if, in addition to Privacy rights, we need to begin a movement for Anonymity rights. Between Loki and Google Street Views, we're beginning to see the old "if it's in public, it can be recorded without permission" defense being used in a new way: companies utilizing new technology to aggressively go out and criss-crossing mammoth areas, soaking up and permanently recording amounts of "public" information previously not possible.

OK, so, nobody has been individually harmed yet by this practice (save perhaps for the guy in Google Street Views photographed in front of the porn shop, who may perhaps have had some fast talking to do if he's married or in public office.)

But where is the line between what you do in public being "public domain", and having to jealously guard every aspect of your identity and actions outside of your dwelling or risk having them permanently recorded?

When we purchase a wireless router, are our only two choices to a.) Turn off SSID broadcast, or b.) consent to having it permanently recorded by Loki?

If I go out in public, are my only options to a.) wear a disguise, or b.) consent to having my activities photographed and permanently displayed on a mapping website? (Yes, I know Google will remove street view photos if you complain - but they don't *have* to, and future similar services may not.)

I'm sorry, that just doesn't seem right to me. The right of any passing person to photograph me in public should not be the same as the right of someone to go out for the express purpose of photographing *everybody in public everywhere*. Or do you think it's acceptable to say that anyone anywhere who does not want to have details of their lives be globally accessible should have to always wear a disguise outside their homes?

How long before every thing we do outside our homes, every aspect of our lives that leaks out beyond our for walls, is fair game to be put on display permanently for the whole world to see on demand? I'll tell you how long: no time at all. Right now. It's always been fair game theoretically, of course, but until now the large-scale methods weren't there, so the question hasn't had to be considered.

I think now that massive data collection is a very practical reality, we need to beef up our ideas about public vs. private realms. I think we need a new concept: Anonymity rights, by which you may go out in public but still have the right, essentially, not to have your identifying details noticed or remembered beyond certain pre-technological limits. Now that everything "in public" is not just locally but globally visible, we need to re-evaluate the basic assumptions about things being "in public". The meaning of the term has fundamentally changed. I don't believe that we should have to jealously guard every single minute identifying detail of our lives from becoming game to be collected and stored permanently on a server somewhere any time we step out of (or do something perceptible outside of) our four walls.

Organized, large-scale data collection of minute, identifying detail should be regarded as ethically wrong, even if each individual bit of data was completely public within its local context. How is what Loki or Google is doing, sending trucks down every street of our cities to record information about us, different (except in degree) from having cameras on every street corner recording all our comings and goings? It's illegal to use infrared detection to peer into my walls. Why is it ok to do it on wireless wavelengths? I don't care if my SSID is being publicly (by the old definition) broadcast within a 40 foot radius. Done on the scale they're doing it, and with the express intent of data acquisition, what the Loki people are doing is spying.

Now, granted, I can almost see some of the more pragmatic readers shaking their heads. I know, I know, no possible harm can come to me by my SSID and location being stored in a database somewhere - *I think*. But do you think this is the last we are going to see of this trend? How many trucks are going to be going down our street recording what information, and then using it how? Do anybody have the right to turn their SSID broadcast on at all without consenting to Loki storing and using it for their business purposes? Do they have the right to force me to choose one of those two options?

Can you see a future where everything you do in public becomes the business of not just those in the particular places you go, but of the whole wide world? Is it the right of everybody in the world to see where you go grocery shopping?

Right now, it is. I don't think it should be. I think, just as much as I have a right to privacy in my home, that anywhere in my life, I should have a right to be forgotten.


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Lewis Butler (apparently) - Jun 21, 2007 9:20 am (#1 Total: 4)  

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Re: Thoughts spurred by Loki, Google Street Views, etc.

On 20-Jun-2007, at 17:56, kupietz wrote:
> But where is the line between what you do in public being "public
> domain", and having to jealously guard every aspect of your
> identity and actions outside of your dwelling or risk having them
> permanently recorded?

Short answer? There is no line.

If you are on the street and you throw away a cup of coffee, it is
perfectly legal for someone to take that cup and run a DNA analysis
on it, find some nifty gene, and PATENT IT.

> When we purchase a wireless router, are our only two choices to a.)
> Turn off SSID broadcast, or b.) consent to having it permanently
> recorded by Loki?

Of all the invasions of privacy there are on a day to day basis
(video cameras are my peeve), I think recording SSIDs is *way* down
the list.

Even if mine is set to "ILuvPorn" :) (That's a joke)

> If I go out in public, are my only options to a.) wear a disguise,

Masks and disguises are actually illegal in many areas.

> or b.) consent to having my activities photographed and permanently
> displayed on a mapping website?

Yeah, you have basically no rights of privacy once you step out of
your house. The only thing you can do is prevent a dead-tree
publication from publishing your RECOGNIZABLE photograph.

> I'm sorry, that just doesn't seem right to me.

Me either, but no one cares what I think, or you. Least of all
lawmakers. Interestingly, it is perfectly legal for Seven-11 to video
monitor their stores, as long as they disclose this. It is NOT legal
for them to record Audio. Weird, eh? But wiretap rules were written
before Closed Circuits, I guess.

> How long before every thing we do outside our homes, every aspect
> of our lives that leaks out beyond our for walls, is fair game to
> be put on display permanently for the whole world to see on demand?

Why do you think this is something that will happen in the future
instead of something that has already happened?

> I'll tell you how long: no time at all. Right now.

Ah, yeah, there we go.

> I think now that massive data collection is a very practical
> reality, we need to beef up our ideas about public vs. private
> realms. I think we need a new concept: Anonymity rights, by which
> you may go out in public but still have the right, essentially, not
> to have your identifying details noticed or remembered beyond
> certain pre-technological limits.

Give money to the EFF, because they are the only ones who are even
trying.

> Now that everything "in public" is not just locally but globally
> visible, we need to re-evaluate the basic assumptions about things
> being "in public".

I think that the "expectation of privacy" should be extended to any
activity that is not specifically public. You don't get an
expectation of privacy at a sporting event, for example. You do when
you go to a restaurant. You don't standing in line at the DMV, you
do standing in line at the Pharmacy. Why are these different?
Legally, i don't know. i just know they are.

But walking down the street, minding your own business with your dog
on the leash is not a "public" event and neither paparazzi nor police
(without appropriate warrants) nor Google should be able to monitor
or record that activity without your permission.

> Can you see a future where everything you do in public becomes the
> business of not just those in the particular places you go, but of
> the whole wide world? Is it the right of everybody in the world to
> see where you go grocery shopping?

Or to see what you buy, how much you pay, HOW you pay, how your
groceries are bagged, how long before you get the milk out of the
trunk, how many carbohydrates you consume in an average day, etc etc.

--
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOFU>




DJRobins (apparently) - Jun 23, 2007 12:25 pm (#2 Total: 4)  

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Re: Thoughts spurred by Loki, Google Street Views, etc.

So you're getting a taste of what "celebrities" in our society have had to put up with for decades.  Have you never heard of paparazzi?

John Schults - Jun 27, 2007 2:05 pm (#3 Total: 4)  

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Re: Thoughts spurred by Loki, Google Street Views, etc.

I'm surprised people have such a casual attitude about how much spying is done in public by both corporate and government agencies. The attitude "if you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to hide" is a weak one in my opinion. Sooner or later, something you like to do (and harms no one) will become "incorrect" and will cause you trouble. In my area, there's a web site that publishes aerial photos shot from a helicopter. Even though these photos were posted by private citizens, government agencies and environmental groups are using the photos to prosecute or harass homeowners. Barbara Streisand tried suing to stop the practice and LOST in court! There are so many databases being kept by the government, too, and no one is responsible for overseeing the accuracy of the data.

This info is being used to determine your employability, your credit rating, and your insurance rates amongst other things like your ability to get on an airplane. The EFF is a good organization to support, but another one worth checking out is EPIC, the Electronic Privacy Information Center at epic.org. They publish a free newsletter that gives real examples of how privacy rights are being compromised, and they have a network in Washington working with legislators and agencies to preserve what privacy rights we have left. 1984 is almost here.

marshall (apparently) - Jun 27, 2007 5:22 pm (#4 Total: 4)  

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Re: Thoughts spurred by Loki, Google Street Views, etc.

At 2:05 PM -0700 6/27/07, John Schults wrote:
>I'm surprised people have such a casual attitude about how much
>spying is done in public by both corporate and government agencies.
>The attitude "if you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing
>to hide" is a weak one in my opinion. Sooner or later, something you
>like to do (and harms no one) will become "incorrect" and will cause
>you trouble.

Exactly.
Consider society's attitude towards smoking, or, in the other
direction towards, well, sodomy.

--
Marshall Clow Idio Software <mailto:marshallidio.com>



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