TidBITS turns 17

>>>For my midlife crisis, I want an electric Porsche. Luckily, so does
>>>Tonya. :-)
>>
>>How about a Tesla instead?
>
> Too expensive. :-) Electric-converted Porsches are way cheaper.

Whoops! Hit a passion of mine besides Macintosh -- my electric mid-life
crisis in-town e-vehicle... been wanting one for about 2 years now:

     http://www.twike.us

         or much more info at:

     http://www.wikipedia/wiki/twike

Extremely lightweight 2-seater with nicad or nimh batteries so a full
recharge in about 1-2 hours, 80 mile range (ergo, in-town) with about a
55mph or so max on-the-flat speed. Available with or without pedals (I'm
also a cyclist that works in a shirt-and-tie shop, so I could bike home,
but not to work). Registers as a motorcycle in most states (three
wheeler), so it's available for motorcycle parking rates at the University
of Illinois ($32 a year, vs. $400), plus motorcycles get primo parking,
and safer than either cycling or biking (plus it'll stick out like a sore
thumb so if anybody DOES hit you, they'll have no excuse).

At somewhere between $25-40k, not as expensive as a Tessla, but probably
in-range of your e-Porsche... if you include the labor for the conversion.
 It's built in Germany, so U.S. customs... DOT... IDOT... all things you
don't have to worry about with a rebuilt ePorche.

M

On 18-Apr-2007, at 07:04, Mike Cohen wrote:
> On 4/17/07, Adam C. Engst <acetidbits.com> wrote:
>> At 10:15 PM -0700 4/16/07, johnbaxterlistsmac.com wrote:
>> >>Lastly, can we have the car keys?
>> >
>> >Only for car models which still have them.
>>
>> For my midlife crisis, I want an electric Porsche. Luckily, so
>> does Tonya. :-)
>
> Once you've driven a car with pushbutton start, using a key seems
> primitive.

I think pushbutton starters are too difficult.

When I walk up to my car, it should unlock the door. When I get in
the car and put on my seat belt, the engine should start.

In fact, that should be the ONLY way to start the engine.

Why should I have to push a button too? Seems like a waste of a button.

On Apr 18, 2007, at 1:43 PM, Google Kreme wrote:

> I think pushbutton starters are too difficult.
>
> When I walk up to my car, it should unlock the door. When I get in
> the car and put on my seat belt, the engine should start.

I may not want it to open the door when I walk up to it. I may be
trying to wash it.

I may not want it to start when I fasten the seat belt--I may be
sitting on the arriving ferry, getting ready.

I'd rather have a bit more control.

   --John

WHOOPS!
Seat belts by themselves are an EXCELLENT idea.
Laws that require seat belts are a TERRIBLE idea.
Mechanical devices that over-ride a human's preferences are the WORST
idea of all.
The amount of human energy actually used for either key or button
starting is trivial.
My choice of a car does not depend on a key or button criteria.
A requirement to have a seat belt fastened before starting would be
an automatic "no deal" criterion for me! (Car manufacturers, are you
listening?)

Google Kreme wrote:
> When I walk up to my car, it should unlock the door. When I get in
> the car and put on my seat belt, the engine should start.
>
> In fact, that should be the ONLY way to start the engine.
>
> Why should I have to push a button too? Seems like a waste of a button.

Spoken like a single guy. Or at least a married one without kids.

Just because the driver has sit down and buckled their belt doesn't mean
the "clan" is anywhere ready to leave. Or even all in the car. When I
get in the car I buckle my belt first thing. Then I deal with things in
the glove box, console, back seat, etc... Same with my wife. And kids
may be on the way or not. And when smaller the one not driving was
buckling, storing, whatever. Sometimes I'm just waiting.

But that's me. :)

> The smart key system is fun. I just have to hold the key fob in my
> pocket and touch the door to unlock it, and then press the power
> button while stepping on the brake. If someone tries to do that
> without having the key on them, it won't open or start.

Actually on the Prius to start it, the smart key doesn't have to be 'on
them' just has to be in the vehicle's internal proximity -- I've driven my
friends' Prius while he was sitting in the passenger seat with his
smartkey in his pocket.

That was neat.

M

[This thread has gone off the rails in so many ways, so let's try to keep the discussion to ways in which technology helps or hinders the human operator... And then we can wind it down. :-) -Adam]


At 22:15 on 16-04-2007, johnbaxterlistsmac.com wrote:
>> Lastly, can we have the car keys?
>
> Only for car models which still have them.

About two months ago I tried to lock my Grandmother's car with the
key and noticed I couldn't find anywhere to insert the key into the
door! What I don't understand about this is... what happens when the
battery in the key runs out? Are you potentially stuck in the middle
of nowhere unable to unlock/drive the car because the battery to
power the unlock button is dead? I think I would want the safety of a
mechanical unlock.

_________________
=> Jolin

On 19-Apr-2007, at 06:26, Power Donald wrote:
> Mechanical devices that over-ride a human's preferences are the WORST
> idea of all.

Disagree. Mechanical devices that make vehicles safer are a good
idea. There's no 'preference' involved, as there is no preference
for air bags, bumpers, turn signals, headlights, rear-view mirrors,
firewalls, or any of the other thousands of safety features built in
to cars.

On 20/4/2007 12:26 AM, "Power Donald" <depowerroadrunner.com> spake thus:

> Laws that require seat belts are a TERRIBLE idea.

I've never quite understood the reasoning behind this. It's been compulsory
to wear seat belts in NZ for quite a long time (at least thirty years, maybe
longer), and civilisation hasn't collapsed :) (it's also a legal
requirement to wear motorcycle and bicycle helmets)

On the other hand:

> A requirement to have a seat belt fastened before starting would be
> an automatic "no deal" criterion for me!

I agree that requiring you to fasten the belt before starting is silly and
totally impractical. What if I want to listen to the engine to figure out
where the funny noise is coming from, or jump-start another vehicle)? I
won't even be in the car while doing that, and when doing so I usually start
the car while standing outside it or at best sitting on the edge of the
driver's seat. The problem is that there are other modes of using a car
engine that are independent of seat belt use.

On the other hand, something that prevents the engine from starting when the
car has been left in gear *might* make sense. I can't think of many
situations in which you would *want* to do that, and it would certainly save
wear and tear on various components.

--
Nigel Stanger, Dunedin, NEW ZEALAND.
http://xri.net/=nigel.stanger

At 05:26 04/19/07 -0700, johnbaxterlistsmac.com wrote:
>I may not want it to open the door when I walk up to it. I may be
>trying to wash it.

Obviously the car needs to read your mind! Artificial intelligence ... now
there's a technology I just KNOW is ready and trustworthy.

At 05:26 04/19/07 -0700, Power Donald wrote:
>Laws that require seat belts are a TERRIBLE idea.

If you know a more effective way to get people to wear seat belts (and save
their lives), then a lot of people want to know. Laws have proven very
effective in increasing seat belt use, even with minimal penalties.
Preventing the engine from starting without seat belt use would indeed be a
bad idea, but that's a very different idea.

Edward
--
Art works by Melynda Reid: http://paleo.org

On Apr 20, 2007, at 5:03 AM, Jolin M Warren wrote:
> About two months ago I tried to lock my Grandmother's car with the
> key and noticed I couldn't find anywhere to insert the key into the
> door! What I don't understand about this is... what happens when the
> battery in the key runs out? Are you potentially stuck in the middle
> of nowhere unable to unlock/drive the car because the battery to
> power the unlock button is dead? I think I would want the safety of a
> mechanical unlock.

Well designed current systems do have a backup mode that does not
require an active battery in the key. In the 2004+ Prius, there is a
physical door key and a keyhole on the driver's door. Once inside,
other doors can be controlled mechanically or via the electronic
control in the front seat armrests. This control is always active.

With regard to the ignition in the Prius, there is passive mode where
the electronic fob can be inserted into a slot in the dashboard and
the electronic signature can be read and manipulated passively, power
coming from the car's electrical system.

The battery in the fob is easily replaceable with a commonly found
lithium battery. My originals are still alive after 3 years of use
(in a temperate climate, though).

Alan Forkosh Oakland, CA
aforkoshmac.com

On Apr 20, 2007, at 8:03 AM, Jolin M Warren wrote:

> [This thread has gone off the rails in so many ways, so let's try
> to keep the discussion to ways in which technology helps or hinders
> the human operator... And then we can wind it down. :-) -Adam]
>
>
> At 22:15 on 16-04-2007, johnbaxterlistsmac.com wrote:
>>> Lastly, can we have the car keys?
>>
>> Only for car models which still have them.
>
> About two months ago I tried to lock my Grandmother's car with the
> key and noticed I couldn't find anywhere to insert the key into the
> door! What I don't understand about this is... what happens when the
> battery in the key runs out? Are you potentially stuck in the middle
> of nowhere unable to unlock/drive the car because the battery to
> power the unlock button is dead? I think I would want the safety of a
> mechanical unlock.

The proximity key usually has a mechanical key built-in to it. If
you look carefully at the fob, you should see a way to pop-out the
mechanical key. So that opens the door. Then, there is usually a
key-port in the car where you can stick the remote-key into, which
allows you to start the car with a dead remote-key (I suspect it's
some kind of induction power thing).

To stick with Adam's admonition, here is where it got interesting.
The other day my wife and I were out all day, and I hadn't realized
that my remote-key battery had died. I didn't notice because the car
was responding to my wife's key. That is until we left the car with
a parking lot attendant who was really annoyed because he couldn't
start the car with my key that I had left behind. (I guess he didn't
know about the key-port in the car.)

The other way in which this whole remote-key thing is cumbersome is
securing the trunk. Time was, most cars usually came with a "valet-
key" which would open the doors and start the car, but not open the
trunk. Now, I have to kill the remote access to the trunk by
flipping a switch in the glove-compartment, and then lock the glove
using a physical key. And I had to read the manual to figure this
out---something I've never had to do with any of my previous cars.

Tomoharu

>> Once you've driven a car with pushbutton start, using a key seems
>> primitive.
>
>I successfully made the transition from button to key start. Key
>start seemed wrong then, and still does.

Some of us with old cars rely on the complexity of the startup
sequence to prevent theft. Having starter buttons come back has
suddenly removed that layer of obscurity to my theft-prevention
strategy! ;)

My mid-60s sports car has a starter button and a key. It also has a
manually operated choke, so at least I've still got that in my favor.
When is the last time any of you have set the choke on anything
larger than a lawn mower?

Oh yeah... Happy Birthday TidBITs! =)

--chuck

Or the backup in a smart is, that the back can be opened mechanically, so that you could climb in and start the car.

--On April 20, 2007 12:09:35 PM -0700 Alan Forkosh <aforkoshmac.com> wrote:

> With regard to the ignition in the Prius, there is passive mode where
> the electronic fob can be inserted into a slot in the dashboard and
> the electronic signature can be read and manipulated passively, power
> coming from the car's electrical system.

My Prius (2003 model) has 2 battery systems, one is the drive battery for
the hybrid, the other is a more standard 12 volt car battery. The computer
systems are powered off the 12 volt battery. If this battery drains for
some reason you will not be able to start the car (even though the hybrid
batteries are fine) as the computers will be down.

Like normal car batteries, the 12v battery in the Prius needs to be
replaced. Mine lasted over 4 years and then after 5 days of being parked
(in an extreme cold snap where I decided to work from home) the car would
not start.

Fortunately you can jump the 12v battery (it's in the trunk on my Prius, so
it looks weird having jumper cables going into the trunk), so I did that
and drove the car in for a new battery.

Toyota recommends never leaving a Prius unstarted for 3 weeks or more
because, apparently, sleep mode on the Prius computers will drain the
battery after that long.

> The battery in the fob is easily replaceable with a commonly found
> lithium battery. My originals are still alive after 3 years of use
> (in a temperate climate, though).

I thought mine was wearing out, but after replacing the battery per the
story above my key fob started working beautifully again.

On 4/22/07 01:30, "chuck goolsbee" <chucklistforest.net> wrote:

>> I successfully made the transition from button to key start. Key
>> start seemed wrong then, and still does.
>
> Some of us with old cars rely on the complexity of the startup
> sequence to prevent theft. Having starter buttons come back has
> suddenly removed that layer of obscurity to my theft-prevention
> strategy! ;)
>
> My mid-60s sports car has a starter button and a key. It also has a
> manually operated choke, so at least I've still got that in my favor.
> When is the last time any of you have set the choke on anything
> larger than a lawn mower?

Heh...you rely on British Engineering to keep people from stealing that car.
They're afraid it won't drive more than a block without needing an engine
overhaul

--
John C. Welch Writer/Analyst
Bynkii.com Mac and other opinions
jwelchbynkii.com

On 4/23/07, Kevin van Haaren <kevinvanhaaren.net> wrote:
> --On April 20, 2007 12:09:35 PM -0700 Alan Forkosh <aforkoshmac.com> wrote:
>
> > With regard to the ignition in the Prius, there is passive mode where
> > the electronic fob can be inserted into a slot in the dashboard and
> > the electronic signature can be read and manipulated passively, power
> > coming from the car's electrical system.
>
> My Prius (2003 model) has 2 battery systems, one is the drive battery for
> the hybrid, the other is a more standard 12 volt car battery. The computer
> systems are powered off the 12 volt battery. If this battery drains for
> some reason you will not be able to start the car (even though the hybrid
> batteries are fine) as the computers will be down.
>
> Like normal car batteries, the 12v battery in the Prius needs to be
> replaced. Mine lasted over 4 years and then after 5 days of being parked
> (in an extreme cold snap where I decided to work from home) the car would
> not start.
>
> Fortunately you can jump the 12v battery (it's in the trunk on my Prius, so
> it looks weird having jumper cables going into the trunk), so I did that
> and drove the car in for a new battery.
>
> Toyota recommends never leaving a Prius unstarted for 3 weeks or more
> because, apparently, sleep mode on the Prius computers will drain the
> battery after that long.

I've had that experience. I was using a 12v compressor to adjust the
tire pressure, but I had the car in ACC ON rather than READY so it
drained the battery. When the 12v battery is dead, you can't get the
trunk open, but fortunately there's a charging terminal under the
hood, which you can still open. It happened again when I left the
Prius unused for a week when I went to MacWorld.

I ended up installing Coastal Tech's power outlet mod to keep the
outlet active with the car turned off and using a solar trickle
charger to keep the 12v battery charged if I don't use it for more
than a few days.

--On April 23, 2007 2:17:47 PM -0700 Mike Cohen <macmegasitegmail.com>
wrote:

>
> I've had that experience. I was using a 12v compressor to adjust the
> tire pressure, but I had the car in ACC ON rather than READY so it
> drained the battery. When the 12v battery is dead, you can't get the
> trunk open, but fortunately there's a charging terminal under the
> hood, which you can still open. It happened again when I left the
> Prius unused for a week when I went to MacWorld.

Interesting. My Prius opens with the key so no issue there for me. Seems
weird they have no way to get in the trunk if the battery is dead. A bit of
a catch 22 there.

> I ended up installing Coastal Tech's power outlet mod to keep the
> outlet active with the car turned off and using a solar trickle
> charger to keep the 12v battery charged if I don't use it for more
> than a few days.

Coastal Tech is really neat, I just wish they had cooler stuff for the 2003
model of the Prius. I'd love to have the ability to have the Electric Mode
Only.

<http://www.coastaletech.com/electric_only_mode.htm>

I did just notice the expanded video options they have for my Prius. I
just may have to pick up one the month after my car is paid off.

<http://www.coastaletech.com/viewtech.htm>

At 14:30 on 19-04-2007, Jolin M Warren wrote:
> At 22:15 on 16-04-2007, johnbaxterlistsmac.com wrote:
>>> Lastly, can we have the car keys?
>>
>> Only for car models which still have them.
>
> About two months ago I tried to lock my Grandmother's care with the
> key and noticed I couldn't find anywhere to insert the key into the
> door! What I don't understand about this is... what happens when
> the battery in the key runs out?

To answer my own question, it seems that if something goes wrong with
the electronic key you're USCWAP!

<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/05/25/cellphones_paralyse_cars/>

_________________
=> Jolin

On May 25, 2007, at 10:53 AM, Jolin M Warren wrote:

> To answer my own question, it seems that if something goes wrong with
> the electronic key you're USCWAP!
>
> <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/05/25/cellphones_paralyse_cars/>

Which meshes nicely with this Reuters item which I found in CNet:

<http://preview.tinyurl.com/yp4xr9>

Summarized: Nissan says to keep your snazzy electronic key at least
two inches away from your cell phone, else incoming or outgoing calls
can zap the key.

So much for carrying the cell phone and key on the same lanyard on
the nude beach.

   --John