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Article on carpal tunnel

[McElhearn, Kirk]Kirk McElhearn (apparently) - 09:22pm Feb 17, 2007 PST
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I know that several of you, as me, have been stricken by this
problem. This article is quite surprising, and, while it doesn't
answer the question, it certainly changes things:

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/131/118210?src=RSS_PUBLIC

Nevertheless, it's clear that when you do get hit with pain, you have
to stop working for a while until it gets better.



Kirk
              Author of: How to Do Everything with Mac OS X Tiger
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brians548 (apparently) - Feb 20, 2007 11:40 am (#26 Total: 45)  

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Re: Article on carpal tunnel

I was tested for carpal tunnel syndrome recently and came out negative. The
first thought was tendonitis, but it turns out to be osteoarthritis. Years
of typing and mousing have worn all the cartilage off the main joint in my
right thumb. As the ends of the bones rub together, the area gets inflamed.

The treatment is rest, icing followed by heating, and occasional two-week
rounds of naproxen. I also use a hand brace and a track ball. With
diligence, I can keep it under control, but I can't burn through hours of
computer work at a stretch like I used to. I'm getting more reading done
instead.

I saw a hand surgeon, but he recommended against surgery; it takes 6-12
months to recover, and he said should be done only with people having severe
pain that can't be managed by other means.

Cortisone shots work, but rapidly diminish in effectiveness over time.

It's worth getting this sort of thing checked out by a specialist. It wasn't
until I had my x-rays examined by a specialist that the arthritis was
diagnosed properly.

One more example of the fact that all sore hands are not the same.

Paul Brians
Professor of English
Director of Undergraduate Studies in English
Washington State University
Pullman, WA 99164-5020
509 335-5689



John C. Welch (apparently) - Feb 21, 2007 9:14 am (#27 Total: 45)  

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Re: Article on carpal tunnel

On 2/20/07 12:40, "Paul Brians" <brianswsu.edu> wrote:

> It's worth getting this sort of thing checked out by a specialist. It wasn't
> until I had my x-rays examined by a specialist that the arthritis was
> diagnosed properly.
>
> One more example of the fact that all sore hands are not the same.

Brilliant point. Just because you type a lot and have pain does not
automatically mean CTS.

--
John C. Welch Writer/Analyst
Bynkii.com Mac and other opinions
jwelchbynkii.com



kirklists (apparently) - Feb 21, 2007 9:14 am (#28 Total: 45)  

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Re: Article on carpal tunnel



On Feb 20, 2007, at 7:40 PM, Paul Brians wrote:

> The treatment is rest, icing followed by heating, and occasional
> two-week
> rounds of naproxen. I also use a hand brace and a track ball. With
> diligence, I can keep it under control, but I can't burn through
> hours of
> computer work at a stretch like I used to. I'm getting more reading
> done
> instead.

In my experience, trackballs are not good at all, at least if you
have to press a button with your thumb. Especially because you say
the problem is at your thumb joint...


Kirk

              Read my blog: Kirkville -- http://www.mcelhearn.com
           Musings, Opinion and Miscellanea, on Macs, iPods and more




Michael Logue (apparently) - Feb 21, 2007 9:14 am (#29 Total: 45)  

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Re: Article on carpal tunnel



On Feb 19, 2007 doughogg wrote:

> I have been having problems with neck pain which seemed to begin
> when I spent long hours at the computer and ignored a burning
> sensation in my upper back.
>
My wife, who weaves, had the same burning sensation across her back,
just below her neck. Her Chiropractor diagnosed her as having a
precondition that would lead to hypoglycemia or diabetes. He cured
her by having her change her diet. She had to eliminate sugars,
refined flour, white rice and alcohol from her diet. She needs to
reduce her intake of all simple carbohydrates because they directly
convert to sugars in the body. She has now been on this diet for
about 3 months and her pain has gone. She also hasn't had an energy
drop in the afternoon that used to force her to lie down and take a
nap. And, as a bonus, she has lost 15 pounds. The elimination of
sugar and refined carbohydrates from her diet is just a
recommendation at this point, she just needs to make sure that she
eats very little of such things. A glass or three of wine per week
and an occasional candy or piece of cake seems to be OK.

Michael Logue The Grateful Union
http://www.earthguild.com/ Earth Guild: Tools Materials Books
mloguemadison.main.nc.us




kevinv (apparently) - Feb 21, 2007 9:14 am (#30 Total: 45)  

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Re: Article on carpal tunnel

--On February 19, 2007 1:01:30 PM -0800 Andrew Laurence
<atlaurenes.nacs.uci.edu> wrote:

> I suspect his early
> muscular conditioning contributed to his resilience, but I also
> notice that to him it feels *wrong* to sit improperly. He spent so
> many years sitting properly that he now does it unconsciously.

Or going by the original posted article, it could be genetics....

As far as sitting position, I'm not convinced we know what sitting
improperly means. Of course our mothers always told us to sit up straight
and we've assumed that to be the best, but recent studies show that an
angle of 135 degrees (with sitting up straight being 90 degrees) might
actually work better. I find it more comfortable at work to set the chair
to lean back.

<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/11/061127112844.htm>

I've had numbness, and occasional pain, in my hands for years. My doctor
prescribed wearing a brace, all day if really bad, but mostly just at night
when having problems. That helped significantly and I rarely have issues
these days.

Additionally I've found that I can train myself pretty quickly to do just
about any task with either hand, so I just flip the mouse from left to
right (or back) when having problems.

Currently the only device I have that I can guarantee will set my wrists
and thumb tingling is my Nextel Blackberry. The phone is right-handed only
and using the little scroll wheel for several minutes really sets me off.
Fortunately I'm not a blackberry addict and it's only games that I use for
that long a time, so I just switch to iPod games when I have problems.

Kevin


John C. Welch (apparently) - Feb 21, 2007 10:55 am (#31 Total: 45)  

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Re: Article on carpal tunnel

On 2/21/07 10:14, "Kirk McElhearn" <kirklistswanadoo.fr> wrote:

>> The treatment is rest, icing followed by heating, and occasional
>> two-week
>> rounds of naproxen. I also use a hand brace and a track ball. With
>> diligence, I can keep it under control, but I can't burn through
>> hours of
>> computer work at a stretch like I used to. I'm getting more reading
>> done
>> instead.
>
> In my experience, trackballs are not good at all, at least if you
> have to press a button with your thumb. Especially because you say
> the problem is at your thumb joint...

Depends on the trackball. The Kensington Expert Mouse is well designed to
let you use all but your middle finger as a primary clicking finger with
either hand. It's the only 'mouse' I've used outside of a trackpad for over
ten years now.

--
John C. Welch Writer/Analyst
Bynkii.com Mac and other opinions
jwelchbynkii.com



Dan Frakes (apparently) - Feb 21, 2007 11:15 am (#32 Total: 45)  

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Re: Article on carpal tunnel

On 2/21/2007 8:14 AM, "Kirk McElhearn" wrote:
>> The treatment is rest, icing followed by heating, and occasional two-week
>> rounds of naproxen. I also use a hand brace and a track ball. With diligence,
>> I can keep it under control, but I can't burn through hours of computer work
>> at a stretch like I used to. I'm getting more reading done instead.
>
> In my experience, trackballs are not good at all, at least if you
> have to press a button with your thumb. Especially because you say
> the problem is at your thumb joint...

To somewhat agree and somewhat disagree ;-) I've been using variations on
Kensington's large TurboMouse/ExpertMouse trackball for over a decade after
having severe RSI issues in the early/mid-90s. Together with HandEze gloves
-- which I found out about from Adam, if I recall correctly -- the trackball
has been immensely better for my hands than a mouse. I can now work long
(too long!) hours at the computer without pain.

The two keys here are: (1) the Kensington trackball is very large, which
means that you can use larger wrist/arm motions to move the mouse cursor,
rather than fine finger/wrist motions; and (2) I use Kensington's software
to reverse the traditional button arrangement so that a standard click is
performed with my pinky and a right-click with my thumb.



kirklists (apparently) - Feb 23, 2007 12:26 pm (#33 Total: 45)  

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Re: Article on carpal tunnel



On Feb 21, 2007, at 7:15 PM, Dan Frakes wrote:

>> In my experience, trackballs are not good at all, at least if you
>> have to press a button with your thumb. Especially because you say
>> the problem is at your thumb joint...
>
> To somewhat agree and somewhat disagree ;-) I've been using
> variations on
> Kensington's large TurboMouse/ExpertMouse trackball for over a
> decade after
> having severe RSI issues in the early/mid-90s. Together with
> HandEze gloves
> -- which I found out about from Adam, if I recall correctly -- the
> trackball
> has been immensely better for my hands than a mouse. I can now work
> long
> (too long!) hours at the computer without pain.
>
> The two keys here are: (1) the Kensington trackball is very large,
> which
> means that you can use larger wrist/arm motions to move the mouse
> cursor,
> rather than fine finger/wrist motions; and (2) I use Kensington's
> software
> to reverse the traditional button arrangement so that a standard
> click is
> performed with my pinky and a right-click with my thumb.

That's the very model that set off my pain... No gloves here, but I
had been using that for a couple of years, and it had very negative
effects. I'm using a Mighty Mouse now, and it's much better for me.


Kirk
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Nigel Stanger (apparently) - Feb 23, 2007 12:26 pm (#34 Total: 45)  

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Re: Article on carpal tunnel

On 22/2/2007 5:14 AM, "Kevin van Haaren" <kevinvanhaaren.net> spake thus:

> Of course our mothers always told us to sit up straight
> and we've assumed that to be the best, but recent studies show that an
> angle of 135 degrees (with sitting up straight being 90 degrees) might
> actually work better.

My osteopath told me once that it didn't really matter how I sat, as long as
(a) I was comfortable, and (b) I didn't stay in the same position for long
periods. In other words, be comfortable and keep moving.

--
Nigel Stanger, Dunedin, NEW ZEALAND.
http://xri.net/=nigel.stanger


mmatty (apparently) - Feb 23, 2007 12:26 pm (#35 Total: 45)  

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Re: Article on carpal tunnel

On Feb 21, 2007, at 1:15 PM, Dan Frakes wrote:

> To somewhat agree and somewhat disagree ;-) I've been using
> variations on
> Kensington's large TurboMouse/ExpertMouse trackball for over a
> decade after
> having severe RSI issues in the early/mid-90s. Together with
> HandEze gloves
> -- which I found out about from Adam, if I recall correctly -- the
> trackball
> has been immensely better for my hands than a mouse. I can now work
> long
> (too long!) hours at the computer without pain.

I found the opposite with the TurboMouse. AIhough I loved using it, I
think it aggravated my CTS as compared with regular mousing. I
suspect that in in order to move around large magnified images in
Photoshop or Illustrator files, I have to do a lot more arm movements
and change position of my hand more often with a regular mouse. I'm
guessing a lot depends on how you use a mouse.

Marilyn

George Wade (apparently) - Feb 23, 2007 12:26 pm (#36 Total: 45)  

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Re: Article on carpal tunnel

Key concepts are: "To somewhat agree and somewhat disagree ;-) "

I went to a de Bono evening on "Direct Teaching of Thinking" last
night. System logic works for the all community; critical logic
appears to work for the management: getting better as you reach the top
of the pyramid. Doesn't matter whether it is computers; network
systems; health care: holistic system logic helps us solve problems
and design a future for mutual benefit; my personal summary.

Why is such important creative stuff only available in Winderz software
~ or for paper & pencil that can be used on long flights?

George

danhardt (apparently) - Feb 23, 2007 12:26 pm (#37 Total: 45)  

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Re: Article on carpal tunnel

I use an Evoluent Vertical Mouse plus a tall wrist rest rather than a
trackball or a normal mouse. It keeps your wrist in a more normal
and relaxed position. It has substantially reduced the pain in my
wrist and hand. There is still a little in my thumb, however. I
bought the Mouse from Kinesis along with an absolutely marvelous
Essential ergonomic keyboard. The pair is a fine combination.

brians548 (apparently) - Feb 23, 2007 12:30 pm (#38 Total: 45)  

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Re: Article on carpal tunnel

> In my experience, trackballs are not good at all, at least if you
> have to press a button with your thumb. Especially because you say
> the problem is at your thumb joint...

The Microsoft trackball I have requires a sideways squeeze rather than a
downward press for a click, which seems to relieve some of the pressure on
my joint. I used to have a Kensington years ago, and I may look into getting
one again if I can retrain myself to click with my middle finger.

Paul Brians

George Wade (apparently) - Feb 23, 2007 9:54 pm (#39 Total: 45)  

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Re: Article on carpal tunnel

Marilyn Matty wrote:
> On Feb 21, 2007, at 1:15 PM, Dan Frakes wrote:
>
>> To somewhat agree and somewhat disagree ;-) I've been using
>> variations on Kensington's large TurboMouse/ExpertMouse trackball...
>
> I found the opposite with the TurboMouse. AIhough I loved using it, I
> think it aggravated my CTS as compared with regular mousing. .....

In most of these auto-immune / inflammatory conditions: each patient is
different; to the point of imagining that several diseases might be
involved. Each disease can be ameliorated by vodka or other suitable
narcotic; improved by detoxification and anti-inflammatories; maybe
cured by "fixing" the immune response.

See all the doctors and nutritionists that are able to help, then
"Cherry-pick" the therapies that work for the individual. Put critical
logic into the background to check for high prices and other problems.
If a good, useful, therapy is illegal --- recycle the critical logic of
the situation and go to Sanoviv in Baja California, for example: where
medical morals are based on the patient who can afford to pay, not on
double blinded authority. Ie. Winderz userz, too, are accepted at
Sanoviv! That's democracy.

George

jwblist (apparently) - Feb 23, 2007 9:54 pm (#40 Total: 45)  

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Re: Article on carpal tunnel

I think a summary of this thread might be...

What works for you in preventing or mitigating CTS and RSI works for
you.

   --John


Dan Frakes (apparently) - Feb 23, 2007 9:54 pm (#41 Total: 45)  

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Re: Article on carpal tunnel

On 2/23/2007 11:26 AM, "Kirk McElhearn" wrote:
>>> In my experience, trackballs are not good at all, at least if you
>>> have to press a button with your thumb. Especially because you say
>>> the problem is at your thumb joint...
>>
>> To somewhat agree and somewhat disagree ;-) I've been using variations on
>> Kensington's large TurboMouse/ExpertMouse trackball for over a decade after
>> having severe RSI issues in the early/mid-90s. Together with HandEze gloves
>> -- which I found out about from Adam, if I recall correctly -- the trackball
>> has been immensely better for my hands than a mouse. I can now work long (too
>> long!) hours at the computer without pain.
>>
>> The two keys here are: (1) the Kensington trackball is very large, which
>> means that you can use larger wrist/arm motions to move the mouse cursor,
>> rather than fine finger/wrist motions; and (2) I use Kensington's software to
>> reverse the traditional button arrangement so that a standard click is
>> performed with my pinky and a right-click with my thumb.
>
> That's the very model that set off my pain... No gloves here, but I
> had been using that for a couple of years, and it had very negative
> effects. I'm using a Mighty Mouse now, and it's much better for me.

I forgot to mention the part of my setup that's just as important: a Contour
Comfort-Glide wrist-rest system. It's a slick mat that sits underneath your
keyboard and mouse, and two form-fitting wrist-rests that glide easily on
the mat. They keep your hands elevated at the "proper" typing height --
they're higher than the cheap gel rests -- but allow you to move your hands
around quite naturally, and to use a mouse/trackball, without ever taking
your hands off the rests. (Sadly, the model I have is long longer made; the
replacement isn't quite as good, but still works.)

This is key to my setup because without the rests, I have a tendency, like
most people, to arch my hands at an upward angle, rather than keeping them
up off my desk. This is especially the case with large trackballs; when I
use the trackball without the wrist-rests, I get pain.

Of course, as others have said, much of this discussion is really about what
works for individuals; there's no "magic bullet." But this setup has allowed
me to have a career using a computer, something that was very much in doubt
a decade ago.



kevinv (apparently) - Feb 23, 2007 9:54 pm (#42 Total: 45)  

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Re: Article on carpal tunnel

--On February 20, 2007 10:40:16 AM -0800 johnbaxterlistsmac.com wrote:

> Teletypes (those I have used, which do not go back before Model 28)
> are quite demanding as to *when* one strikes a key. Neither too soon
> nor a little too late works.

You could give a keyboard like this a try:
<http://www.vonslatt.com/steampunkworkshop.com/images/Kb41.jpg>

article on how it was made:
<http://www.vonslatt.com/steampunkworkshop.com/keyboard.shtml>


brians548 (apparently) - Feb 27, 2007 3:45 pm (#43 Total: 45)  

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Re: Article on carpal tunnel

I was interested in the initial description of the Evoluent Vertical Mouse
given here, but put off by the C-Net review at

http://reviews.cnet.com/Evoluent_VerticalMouse_2/4505-3148_7-31242024.html

Any users want to comment on this review?


Paul Brians


danhardt (apparently) - Feb 28, 2007 12:51 pm (#44 Total: 45)  

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Re: Article on carpal tunnel

On Feb 27, 2007, at 2:45 PM, Paul Brians wrote:

> http://reviews.cnet.com/
> Evoluent_VerticalMouse_2/4505-3148_7-31242024.html
>
> Any users want to comment on this review?

Paul,
I bought my Evoluent Vertical Mouse 2 from Kinesis about 20 months
ago when I got my 20" G5 iMac and the Kinesis Essential keyboard. I
wouldn't trade any of them for anything. I use them virtually every
day. My responses to the C-Net review, which I hadn't read until now:
1. Removing the forearm twist made a huge difference in my pain. I
no longer wear a wrist brace. I still have some low level pain in my
thumb, but part of that is arthritis and a disk problem in my neck.
2. Yes, my right little finger drags, but so did my fingertips and
the right side of my hand with a normal mouse. My finger slides
gently on the surface of the keyboard drawer, and I don't even know
it's happening. The pressure falls on the wrist rest, not my
finger. The finger has no callous. Since I use it with a tall wrist
rest (it's 1" tall and could be a little taller), there is no drag
from the right side of my hand.
3. The rubber around my scrollwheel has never separated from the
scrollwheel. They may have gotten a bad one. Why didn't they call
Evoluent and get it replaced?
4. Yes, it's tall; yes, it took several days to reprogram my brain;
yes, I've sent it off the keyboard drawer onto the floor. I also
have a familial tremor that adds to the problem. And yes, I did the
same thing with a regular mouse. But my brain reprogrammed just fine.
5. The Evoluent is very sensitive and accurate. My tremor makes
accuracy something of a problem, but I can get better accuracy with
it than with a regular mouse design.
6. I have never unplugged the mouse. It has always responded after
sleep. Sounds like a Windows problem.
7. Yes, $30 is a lot to charge for a left-handed mouse. Knowing what
I know, would I pay it? Absolutely.

I also have an Apple wireless mouse on the left side of the keyboard
that I use frequently. That means my right hand doesn't have to work
so much.
I hope this helps.
Dan Hardt

Adam Engst - Feb 28, 2007 5:31 pm (#45 Total: 45)  

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article on carpal tunnel

[Apologies to Wade for this - it was caught by Postini originally,
and although I thought I sent it through already, I must have done
something wrong, since I'm not seeing it anywhere. -Adam]


I've been struggling with carpal tunnel, metals poisoning and autoimmunity
for several years now. I sent the following response on Sunday to the
TidBITS Talk posting on carpal tunnel. It's Tuesday and I haven't seen my
response posted to the list. Since this is of interest to several list
members, I thought I would mail it out individually. I've made minor
editorial changes to the original article.

You can access the pub med abstracts I reference by entering the ID numbers
at <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi>.

Wade Riddick

____________________________

Carpal tunnel can be a symptom of any number of stressful conditions which
affect peripheral nerves, ranging from diabetes to metals poisoning. A
severe enough food allergy or magnesium deficiency can cause muscle spasms
which compress various neurovascular bundles leading to carpal tunnel pain.
You may not even feel anything in the area of compression. A good physical
therapist may be able to sort this out for you.

Other causes of carpal tunnel pain can include B vitamin or other
nutritional deficiency, autoimmunity (especially an inflammatory bowel
problem), pregnancy, growth hormone or sex steroid deficiency, TMJ/TMD,
fungal infection and obesity. Generally speaking, you would probably see
other symptoms but they might appear minor (e.g., athlete's foot, sinus
infections or split fingernails).

Some of these causes can overlap and interrelate. The bottom line is they
would lower your natural pain threshold in some fashion. Women tend to be
more sensitive to pain than men - except redheads, who have a non-funtional
MC-1 receptor mutation in the neuropeptide system - so it's no surprise
women tend to report more upper body neuromuscular pain.* Men may be
protected by our naturally higher carnitine levels (testosterone is a
carnitine transporter). It tends to be the case that taking carnitine
raises the pain threshold while a carnitine deficiency lowers it.
Carnitine transport defects are associated with autoimmune conditions [PMID
17065219], which are more common in women. Acetyl-l-carnitine, in fact, is
one of the few over-the-counter substances which can repair damaged
peripheral nerves (although it can have side effects).

Substances which inhibit protein kinase C (DHEA, fish oils, a low glycemic
index diet) can boost the pain-relieving actions of carnitine [PMID
15223307]. Similarly, substances which activate PKC would reduce this
effect and lower the pain threshold. Sugar elevates PKC (making
antibiotics plus a high glycemic index American diet particularly bad).
Wheat in somebody with celiac disease can elevate PKC. High homocysteine
(i.e., a B vitamin deficit) elevates PKC. Homocysteine also has a nasty
habit of blocking GABA receptors. Even sleep apnea can raise PKC.

Pain can also be a reflection of opioid signaling problems. Certain
autoimmune digestive disorders or even just chronic antibiotic use can
knock out mu opioid and cannabinoid receptors [PMID 17159985], which means
you've got fewer docking stations in nerve cells for your body's own
natural analgesics. Sure enough, when this happens in mice their tolerance
of painful stimulus drops
<http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn10808.html>. Low-dose naltrexone
can help reverse this alteration and that's probably one reason it's highly
effective for inflammatory bowel disease and Crohn's. PKC is also a factor
here; it can decrease the number of opioid receptors [PMID 17000011].
Blocking PKC helps reduce the tolerance to opiates that develops among
opiate addicts. PKC is also an important part of the signaling process
that opens up the tight junctions of the gastrointestinal tract, resulting
in leaky gut syndrome.

It's easy to think this doesn't apply to you but red meat, cow's milk
(casein), wheat and rice digest into natural opioids. When the gut barrier
is leaky, these partially digested allergens can pass into the bloodstream
and start screwing up your opioid receptors. Heavy metals like mercury can
disrupt both the gut barrier and the opioid system. Mercury is, in fact,
an antibiotic and can disrupt local mu opioid signaling simply through
those properties.

There are plenty of other things that matter to pain perception. Diabetes,
for instance, has a habit of screwing up the body's inhibitory signaling
system (GABA receptors). I bring up carnitine and opioids because the
research is very recent and most physicians probably haven't heard of the
links. Discussing this also gives you an idea of how important various
aspects of your metabolism are to pain perception.

Unfortunately, most orthopedists are not competent in these areas of
medicine. When you're a hammer you tend to see the world as filled with
nails. Surgeons are no different. They tend to see the world as filled
with surgical problems. Indeed, a lot of doctors seem to totally forget
the Krebs cycle once they get out of med school. Finding one who will be
thorough can be difficult.

I don't know if carpal tunnel surgery is appropriate for any given
individual. You'll have to make this determination yourself. I hope this
gives you an idea of how complicated your health problems could really be
once the symptom appears. Also remember that American medicine hasn't yet
heard of statistical quality control. We spend more time and effort
figuring out what movies you like to rent than we do figuring out medical
mysteries.

Wade Riddick

* There's also a gender difference in the ability to cause pain as well.
A female shot nurse will, all other factors being equal, inflict slightly
less pain on her patients because of the way the brain's perception systems
work.



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