Apple and the enterprise

On Feb 3, 2007, at 1:17 AM, Andrew Laurence wrote:
> Here in higher ed, it is not lost that Apple at long last delivered
> a UNIX operating system with a GUI that delivers Office. Not sorta-
> Office or mostly-kinda Office, but Office. perl with Office. SPSS
> with Office. C or FORTRAN code that a faculty member has been
> hauling around for two decades... and Office. We've seen faculty
> usage climb rapidly on those merits alone. (And faculty can do
> whatever the heck they want. Those are sales Apple got one customer
> at a time, one computer at a time, on merits of the product and in
> some cases despite the evil IT support.)
>
> Oh yeah, Java works well. That's a bonus for the administrative apps.

I always found it ironic that "I'm a Mac, I'm a PC commercial" where
they get each other holiday presents. The PC gets the Mac a GUI C++
Programming Guide. Ha ha! That geeky PC doesn't know what's cool!

Of course, which platform comes with a free C++ compiler, a GUI
integrated IDE, and the complete manpages for developing your GUI C++
programs, and which platform does one have to pay a few C notes to
Microsoft for the privilege of developing software on their system?

My son bought a Windows PC because he felt it would work better with
his high school's PC oriented network. He then developed a taste for
writing PHP which he discovered on my Mac. He ended up spending hours
downloading, Apache, PHP, mySQL to his PC, and then weeks attempting
to get them to work together. He finally repartitioned his drive and
downloaded Linux. He told me his next computer is going to be a Mac.

There's a whole market out there in the higher education field that
Apple seems to be missing. The Mac comes with all of the computer
development software students and teachers need, AND it has Microsoft
Office (as Andrew put it " Not sorta-Office or mostly-kinda Office,
but Office"). It's a powerful combination that many kids in my son's
high school are now realizing. My son tells me that Macs notebooks
are out numbering PC notebooks in the freshman class and that a few
of his friends have replaced their PC notebooks with Macs because
these kids know that Macs already come with all the software they
need to do real website and programming development.

=======================================
Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, doctor,
and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it."
-- Elwood P. Dowd
=======================================

David Weintraub
davidweintraubworld.net
davidweintraub.name

On 2-Feb-2007, at 23:17, Randy B. Singer wrote:
> And so is the medical office market. But I just did a survey of
> the Mac real estate sales market and it is very close to being about
> non-existant.

This is because MetroList is IE specific on their website. It will
work, sorta, in Firefox, but only the Windows version. (A friend of
mine is a Mac using Relator who has a wintel specifically for
Metrolist).

All I know is that when I go into a coffee shop I am never the only
Mac user. That was not true 5 years ago., or 10.

--
Advance and attack! Attack and destroy! Destroy and rejoice!

--On February 4, 2007 6:25:36 AM +0200 David Weintraub
<davidweintraub.name> wrote:
> Of course, which platform comes with a free C++ compiler, a GUI
> integrated IDE, and the complete manpages for developing your GUI C++
> programs, and which platform does one have to pay a few C notes to
> Microsoft for the privilege of developing software on their system?

Microsoft offers it's Visual Studio Express Editions for free. You get the
visual IDE, compiler and part of the MSDN library. Express Editions are
available for C#, C++, J# and Visual Basic.

You can also get their web development (ASP) and database server (SQL
Server 2005) for free. IIS is already free.

<http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/default.aspx>

All of that is of course to balance the AMP (Apache, MySQL,
PHP/PERL/Python) stack more popular in the UNIX world.

Still I prefer XCode to Visual Studio Express Editions. I can more quickly
produce the little apps with GUI that I like to have in Applescript Studio
than anything else. And the GUI development is so much cooler with all the
little guides that let you know you're following Apple's GUI guidelines.

Plus I've never liked vbscript as a language (the basis for ASP). I much
prefer PHP for web development.

Randy B. Singer wrote:

>I don't know of a single large corporation (i.e. with hundreds of
>employees) that uses Macs.

I don't know that Macs are the standard desktop machine at any large
corporation besides Apple, but we get purchase orders from plenty of
companies with thousands of employees for our Mac-only software
product. FWIW, our corporate customers tend to be in the printing,
music, television and movie industries, but we also get orders from
retailers, restaurant chains, and other non-media businesses (which
presumably use Macs in their graphics departments).
--
Jim Matthews
Fetch Softworks
http://fetchsoftworks.com

Enterprise isn't just a subcategory of business. Enterprise covers any large organization, including government, corporation, NGO, and in some cases universities and such. Any place where computing is essential to getting the job done, but isn't the necessarily the focus of what you are doing. 

On Feb 4, 2007, at 11:25 PM, Jim Matthews wrote:

> Randy B. Singer wrote:
>
>> I don't know of a single large corporation (i.e. with hundreds of
>> employees) that uses Macs.
>
> I don't know that Macs are the standard desktop machine at any large
> corporation besides Apple,

I can name two off the top of my head where just about everyone, even
the suits, get Macs:

Advance/Newhouse

The New York Times Company (they own a lot more than the flagship
newspaper)

In just about every ad agency, at least the creative and production
people will have Macs (numbering in the thousands), and mid sized
agencies, like Arnold (about 1,000+ worldwide) are at least close to
all Macs, at least in their US offices.

Marilyn

Fascinating definitions and discussion - thanks, folks...

> >And regardless of what Apple's doing, am I the only one who sees more
>>Macintosh use happening in the business/education/government world
>>these days?
>
>I'd really like to hear about what you have seen.

It was mostly at Macworld Expo - it felt as though there were more
companies showing business-oriented products than in the past.

>With regard to vertical markets, I can tell you that the law office
>market is doing somewhat better thanks to some minimal attention from
>Apple. And so is the medical office market. But I just did a survey of
>the Mac real estate sales market and it is very close to being about
>non-existant.

Vertical markets feel like a different beast to me - they're always
going to be small enough that developers will have a hard time
justifying Mac development. But Parallels is making it possible to
have a Mac and run that one proprietary Windows app too, and I know
they're selling a ton to that world.

>Apple's status in the education market is no where near what what it once
>was. Many school districts have "standardized" on Windows PC's, ofen
>Dells. Apple's switch to an in-house sales force caused their old
>outside salespeople to simply convert their territories Windows machines.
> There have been some well- publicized victories selling Apple laptops to
>entire local school districts, but those are really just a drop in the
>bucket. I go into a public school in my neighborhood and often I see a
>few really old Macs, maybe one or two eMacs, and a bunch of cheap PC's.

That's definitely a sales issue, and no arguments there. Though I do
see a lot more college freshman coming in with Macs than was true a
short while ago.

>I don't know of a single large corporation (i.e. with hundreds of
>employees) that uses Macs.

Genentech :-)

> I would be surprised to hear that there is
>one, because I don't think that much enterprise-class software made the
>transition to OS X. I guess that it is possible that a small corporation
>could have crafted custom software using FileMaker Pro or Cocoa. I'd be
>especially interested to hear if anyone knows of a large corporation that
>uses Macs.

I wonder if most of this custom software isn't being built as Web
apps now, since that's clearly a safer approach and avoids rollout
issues as well. And with only a little attention, Web apps don't
suffer from platform issues.

cheers... -Adam

On Feb 4, 2007, at 12:22 PM, Kevin van Haaren wrote:

> --On February 4, 2007 6:25:36 AM +0200 David Weintraub
> Microsoft offers it's Visual Studio Express Editions for free. You
> get the visual IDE, compiler and part of the MSDN library. Express
> Editions are available for C#, C++, J# and Visual Basic.
>
> You can also get their web development (ASP) and database server
> (SQL Server 2005) for free. IIS is already free.
>
> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/default.aspx>


I never heard of the Visual Studio Express Editions. Is that
something new? What's the difference between the "Express" edition
and the other edition?

Actually, I know that Microsoft is pretty good about giving people
access to its development tools -- especially students. I also know
if you join MSDN, they give you a whole bunch of tools for gratis.
One think I've got to admit is that Microsoft knows how to treat
developers.

Still, even if these tools are free, you still have to download them
and install them. They're part and parcel of Mac OS X.

=======================================
Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, doctor,
and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it."
-- Elwood P. Dowd
=======================================

David Weintraub
davidweintraubworld.net
davidweintraub.name

--On February 5, 2007 7:51:36 PM -0500 David Weintraub
<davidweintraub.name> wrote:

> I never heard of the Visual Studio Express Editions. Is that something
> new? What's the difference between the "Express" edition and the other
> edition?

I think they've been out around a year or so. Longer if you include the
time where they were releasing one language technical previews (i.e. alpha
versions) of the products for free.

The FAQ is a bit vague on the differences. Basically it appears to come
down to the documentation is more limited as it is "targeted documentation
that will help the beginning programmer quickly learn the concepts required
to build more advanced applications." And -- "The user interfaces are
significantly streamlined to ensure that extraneous features do not
interfere with the learning process."

<http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/support/faq/>

We've switched many of our power users that used Visual Basic in the past
to the Express Editions.

> Actually, I know that Microsoft is pretty good about giving people access
> to its development tools -- especially students.

Generally the educational tools were license restricted so you could NOT
produce commercial apps or receive money for using them. The Express
Editions don't have these license restrictions.

> I also know if you join
> MSDN, they give you a whole bunch of tools for gratis. One think I've got
> to admit is that Microsoft knows how to treat developers.

Yes and no. They're recent license changes on the commercial editions of
Visual Studio are a nightmare to figure out how to get from what you were
getting to getting a similar set of functionality in the new setup, without
paying an arm and a leg more. Ed Foster's Gripe Line column at Infoworld
recently covered a MSDN issue that wasn't too far different than ours was:
<http://www.gripe2ed.com/scoop/story/2007/2/5/11545/58787>

> Still, even if these tools are free, you still have to download them and
> install them. They're part and parcel of Mac OS X.

Eh, I usually download the updated versions of X Code when they become
available (I have Apple's free Developer membership) and there are usually
1 or 2 updates that come out during each product cycle. The last release of
Xcode, 2.4.1, is 923 MB. Plus the January 2007 reference library update is
another 250MB. But it is certainly worth the download time!

But with Apple you're getting the whole thing -- distributed compiling, the
full documentation, all the languages, etc... Not to mention that searching
Apple's Developer site returns way better results than searching
Microsoft's MSDN site (they are constantly moving stuff around and the
search just isn't that great. I almost find it better to use Google and
limit the returns to the msdn.microsoft.com site)

Oh, one other complaint I have about Microsoft's Express Editions is the
registration process for getting the tools. The basic Xcode that shipped
with OS X doesn't require any registration. A simple free developer
registration is required to get access to later updates.

Express Editions requires setting up a Passport account with Microsoft (you
heard that was dead too? Wrong, it's still used by Microsoft) and it had
some truly annoying forms to fill out.

--On February 5, 2007 11:50:05 PM +0200 Marilyn Matty <mmattynyc.rr.com>
wrote:

> I can name two off the top of my head where just about everyone, even
> the suits, get Macs:
>
> Advance/Newhouse
>
> The New York Times Company (they own a lot more than the flagship
> newspaper)

Hallmark here in Kansas City uses tons of Macs, they have 18,000 employees.
Can't remember if that is their standard all the way up the company though,
but I remember talking 4 or 5 years ago to several employees about how they
were moving to all digital production using mainly Macs.

Adam C. Engst said:

>> >And regardless of what Apple's doing, am I the only one who sees more
>>>Macintosh use happening in the business/education/government world
>>>these days?
>>
>>I'd really like to hear about what you have seen.
>
>It was mostly at Macworld Expo - it felt as though there were more
>companies showing business-oriented products than in the past.

I saw the same business-oriented applications that I've seen just about
every year, with the exception of last year when the small business
section in the North Hall seems to have been scraped with all of North
Hall. I'm glad that MWX now spans both halls again. But unfortunately I
didn't see any evidence of increased interest in the business markets.

>>With regard to vertical markets, I can tell you that the law office
>>market is doing somewhat better thanks to some minimal attention from
>>Apple. And so is the medical office market. But I just did a survey of
>>the Mac real estate sales market and it is very close to being about
>>non-existant.


>>Apple's status in the education market is no where near what what it once
>>was.

>That's definitely a sales issue, and no arguments there. Though I do
>see a lot more college freshman coming in with Macs than was true a
>short while ago.

Yes, in many cases I've seen that too. Powerbooks are now especially
popular. But there is an issue that has developed that discourages
college and post-grads from purchasing Macs. College admission via the
Web, and standardized testing for post-grad studies have been gravitating
towards Windows-only solutions. This isn't a hurtle that can't be
overcome by Mac users, but it sends a nasty message that Macs aren't
important enough for compatibility to be offered.


Randy B. Singer

Co-Author of:
The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th and 6th editions)

OS X Routine Maintenance
http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html

There was a time when 'Enterprises' were expected to live up to their
name and to be 'Enterprising.' Am I being archaic?

George

> All I know is that when I go into a coffee shop I am never the only
> Mac user. That was not true 5 years ago., or 10.

On a similarly anecdotal note, I fly transatlantic - same airline, same route
- 3 to 4 times a year. A couple of years ago I would notice if there was
another PowerBook user in the departure lounge, and we'd exchange looks.

Last week, all four of the six people in the row ahead of me (Continental are
flying smaller planes LGW-EWR than they used to) that were using laptops, were
using Mac laptops.

- Ben

George Wade wrote:
> There was a time when 'Enterprises' were expected to live up to their
> name and to be 'Enterprising.' Am I being archaic?
>
:)

I don't think they ever did.

[snip of notes about Apple tools being free while MS charges]

>> Still, even if these tools are free, you still have to download them and
>> install them. They're part and parcel of Mac OS X.
>
> Eh, I usually download the updated versions of X Code when they become
> available (I have Apple's free Developer membership) and there are usually
> 1 or 2 updates that come out during each product cycle. The last release of
> Xcode, 2.4.1, is 923 MB. Plus the January 2007 reference library update is
> another 250MB. But it is certainly worth the download time!
>
> But with Apple you're getting the whole thing -- distributed compiling, the
> full documentation, all the languages, etc... Not to mention that searching
> Apple's Developer site returns way better results than searching
> Microsoft's MSDN site (they are constantly moving stuff around and the
> search just isn't that great. I almost find it better to use Google and
> limit the returns to the msdn.microsoft.com site)

I'm sure that at a high level Apple would love to charge more for their
developer tools. But when you're #2 you have to try harder. :)

They, Apple, used to charge for a lot of the stuff back in the day about
which this thread seemed to start. Back when they felt they were
competing with MS for the enterprise. When folks have to pay a non
trivial sum for something of value they tend to become loyal to said
thing. No mater how impartial folks claim to be when you have a tool box
full of metric tools you bought you're going to tend to work on metric
projects. Same with programming tools and skills.

But now they are in a long catch up mode. That and with Unix you almost
have to provide a developer environment for free. So things will like be
free for a long time. Now as to classes, seminars, conferences, etc...
that's a completely different animal.

On 2/5/07 23:52, "Kevin van Haaren" <kevinvanhaaren.net> wrote:

> Express Editions requires setting up a Passport account with Microsoft (you
> heard that was dead too? Wrong, it's still used by Microsoft) and it had
> some truly annoying forms to fill out.

No, no, it's all different now. It's a WIndows LIVE account.

Completely different thing

--
John C. Welch Writer/Analyst
Bynkii.com Mac and other opinions
jwelchbynkii.com

At 11:34 PM -0800 2/5/07, Randy B. Singer wrote:
> >It was mostly at Macworld Expo - it felt as though there were more
> >companies showing business-oriented products than in the past.
>
>I saw the same business-oriented applications that I've seen just about
>every year, with the exception of last year when the small business
>section in the North Hall seems to have been scraped with all of North
>Hall. I'm glad that MWX now spans both halls again. But unfortunately I
>didn't see any evidence of increased interest in the business markets.

What you don't see is corporations chucking out all their Windows
machines and bringing in Macs, and then making a big announcement.
The other thing you don't see is a large number of people - mostly
execs and upper management, and IT folks including (especially)
infosec - getting Macs to use as their standard desktop machine. I
see this increasing both at my place and in conversations with others.

While I am one of the first to decry Apple's abandonment of the
enterprise (I was there in 1997 and can tell a particularly horrible
story), one major step back to enterprise awareness is that Apple has
certified almost 3 dozen schema extensions to Active Directory. These
had existed for awhile, but with Microsoft now having tested and
officially approved that Apple's preferred extensions will do no harm
to an enterprise AD installation, the network architects and AD
admins have Microsoft's own assurance that 1) it's okay to change the
AD configuration to, 2) allow OSX onto the corporate network so it
can authenticate.

Most corp networks these days are controlled by AD, and the above is
a crucial factor. The fact that Macs will run Windows (BootCamp,
Parallels or Crossover) is actually less important to enterprise
computing than AD authentication. In fact I think it's safe to say
that *without* AD authentication an installation of Windows on a Mac
would probably be specifically disallowed. (Thought that's
speculative and probably varies from company to company.)

One thing that isn't helping Apple get laptops and iMacs into *some*
businesses and other places is the lack of a build-to-order option to
delete the built-in camera.

There are a significant number of "no cameras allowed" places in the
world (and there could be more after the show which CBS put on after
the Superbowl on Sunday--which IMHO had no place in west coast 8PM
hour given the violence).

   --John

I should have been more clear...

At 11:26 AM -0800 2/6/07, dano wrote:
>What you don't see is corporations chucking out all their Windows
>machines and bringing in Macs, and then making a big announcement.

You won't see this because it isn't happening. (Or at least I haven't
gotten wind of it.)

>The other thing you don't see is a large number of people - mostly
>execs and upper management, and IT folks including (especially)
>infosec - getting Macs to use as their standard desktop machine. I
>see this increasing both at my place and in conversations with others.

This however, is happening. But it's not very visible.

Ars' John Siracusa has an excellent article on the nature of the
enterprise, and Apple's self-selecting out of that market:
http://arstechnica.com/staff/fatbits.ars/2007/08/09/stuck-on-the-enterprise


--
Andrew Laurence
atlaurenuci.edu