Tactile Pro Keyboard feedback

MacSlash has a link to a review of the keyboard, along with MP3s of
the sounds it makes.

<http://macslash.org/article.pl?sid=04/06/01/0733242&mode=thread>

On 01 Jun 2004, at 17:55, Adam C. Engst wrote:
> Richard Theriault (formerly of Mac Design/Mac Today) suggested that we
> increase the size of the Option keys on the Tactile Pro to 1.5x and
> reduce
> the size of the Ctrl keys to x (where x is a single key width). In
> effect, we'd be swapping the sizes of the Ctrl and Option keys, with
> the
> relative positions kept the same.

It is easier to hit a large control key with a pinky stretching out. I
would vote NO on this one.

> The reasoning is that the Option key is used a lot more than Control,

I dunno if that is true. Probably is for most people I guess, but the
keys that are furthest away need to be big targets because it is your
weakest most pathetic finger that is reaching for them (I mean, left
pink is certainly #10 on the list of ten fingers...)

> What do you think? Would the power users revolt?

Switch Control and Caps Lock and make caps lock small (really really
small, and clicky so that it is stuck down when caps lock is engaged,
as $DEITY intended). Everyone wins! :)

At 4:55 PM -0700 2004/06/01, Adam C. Engst wrote:
>Edgar Matias asked me to forward this to see what people think.
>Personally, I don't mind the sizes of the Control and Option keys,
>since I use Control a lot in macros. Lots of people have asked for
>the capability to switch Control and Caps Lock though.

        Matias:

>The reasoning is that the Option key is used a lot more than Control, and
>is more difficult to get at. With the Control key on the end of the row,
>it is still easy to hit, even with the reduced size.

        Not for me -- I use Control all the time in the shell, and
rarely type Option characters. I used to use Option characters long
ago, for smart quotes & such, but I suspect most people just let Word
do it for them now (which gets the direction of the apostrophe wrong
for years, of course). Now that most of my typed output is for a
cross-platform audience (email & HTML), the Option characters are
rarely appropriate to use anyway. If I was writing for paper, this
would be different.

        Poll time!

                                                Chris Pepper
--
Chris Pepper: <http://www.reppep.com/~pepper/>
Rockefeller University: <http://www.rockefeller.edu/>

People who live outside the US use Option a lot more (for accented characters).

Harro de Jong

Howdy -

I LOVE this keyboard. We have purchased 6 of them and will be getting more.
This is one of the best recommendations I have ever gotten from Tidbits.

I cannot think of a thing that needs changing. The control option placements
seem fine as it is.

Yours,

Chris Balay

      Work Life:
PEZ Candy Inc.
Director of I.T.
35 Prindle Hill Road
Orange, CT 06477
(203) 795-0531
E-mail: balaypezcandyinc.com
       Real Life:
Phone: (203) 641-0667
E-Mail: Chris.Balaygawpus.com
URL: http://www.whiteplume.net

--On Thursday, June 3, 2004 6:59 AM -0700 Lloyd Budd
<lloydfoolswisdom.com> wrote:

> I use CTL a lot for applications running under X11 . My experience with
> CTL has only been in combination with CMD . Or left / right arrow key to
> step back and forward words -- this after SHIFT to hi-lite has led me to
> too often OPT+C , then +V , Ã ;-)

I think a lot of unix people that use a lot of ctrl characters actually
like having the control key where the caps lock key is (and the same size)
and the caps lock key where the control key is.

The Happy Hacking keyboard is laid out this way:

<http://shop.store.yahoo.com/pfuca-store/index.html>

Kevin

On 4-Jun-04, at 21:32, Kevin van Haaren wrote:

> I think a lot of unix people that use a lot of ctrl characters
> actually like having the control key where the caps lock key is (and
> the same size) and the caps lock key where the control key is.
It is not clear to me how CTRL in the PC keyboard CAPS position relates
to Tactile Pro Keyboard , or them considering decreasing the size of
CTRL in favor of OPT ?

The UNIX workstation keyboard layout with it's CTRL in the PC keyboard
CAPS position may be preferred by a lot of UNIX people , but almost
exclusively the "UNIX people" I have worked with do not use a UNIX
workstation keyboard.

On 4-Jun-04, at 15:00, HJongtriview.nl wrote:

> People who live outside the US use Option a lot more (for accented
> characters).

That makes a great deal of sense , though are those people using
English keyboards ?

On 06-06-2004 07:59:24, Lloyd Budd wrote:

>On 4-Jun-04, at 15:00, HJongtriview.nl wrote:
>
>> People who live outside the US use Option a lot more (for accented
>> characters).
>
>That makes a great deal of sense , though are those people using
>English keyboards ?

It depends. Some countries have their own, unique keyboard layouts (like Germany and
France). Others (like the Netherlands) use a layout that's identical to the US keyboard
(or mostly identical, with only keys like \ and ; changing places).
In Windows, you also get country-specific keyboard mappings: on a US keyboard, you type
Alt-0232 to get an è, on a Dutch keyboard, you type ' e. On the Mac, I always use the US
keyboard setting, so I don't know if such differences exist on the Mac.

Harro de Jong

I have no opinion on changing the widths of the Control and Option keys but add my voice to those who want a Caps Lock key that toggles between a physically depressed and normal position when struck. I would like to replace my Apple Extended Keyboard II and the ADB to USB adapter with a Tactile Pro Keyboard but asking me to give up a Caps Lock whose state I can sense by feel is a big barrier.

Ron Lynch

After a disappointing first experience (bad / stuck keys) reminiscent of the old keyboards, my second one is only a couple days old AND I LOVE IT.

My vote for the CONTROL - OPTION size debate is LEAVE IT ALONE. I don't use UNIX keyboards just because I have Linux on the PC and BSD on my MAC! I use the PC and MAC keyboards! The current layout makes it easy to switch back and forth.

One gripe would be the lack of relief on the right side of the CAPS LOCK key. I have the slightest tendency to catch the right edge when I hit the "A" KEY AND OOPS ALL CAPS AFTER THAT (damn, see!).

Thanks though for the Power Key. I think Apple missed the boat with that omission. Don't you think bold white is kind of stark? Why not mimic the Apple Platinum color? The color could match the Quicksilver's gray or the G5's aluminum...

Adam C. Engst writes (6/1/04 at 4:55 PM -0700) :
   (Concerning - Tactile Pro Keyboard feedback) :

>Edgar Matias asked me to forward this to see what people think.

[snip...]

>
>I'd like to get your opinion on something...
>
>Richard Theriault (formerly of Mac Design/Mac Today) suggested that we
>increase the size of the Option keys on the Tactile Pro to 1.5x and reduce
>the size of the Ctrl keys to x (where x is a single key width). In
>effect, we'd be swapping the sizes of the Ctrl and Option keys, with the
>relative positions kept the same.
>
>The reasoning is that the Option key is used a lot more than Control, and
>is more difficult to get at. With the Control key on the end of the row,
>it is still easy to hit, even with the reduced size.

I'd like to suggest another possibility -- make the Control, Option
and Command keys equal in size. I don't favor the idea of reducing
any of these three keys down to the "x" width (single or letter key
width). Since many people use Option a lot and others use Control a
lot (and those who use macro software like QuicKeys probably use all
three), equality might be a fairer choice.

You could do this by either dividing the current space allotted to
the three keys by three or (a better choice in my opinion), increase
the Option key to the same width as Control and Command and get the
extra space by shaving a couple of millimeters off of the left and
right side of the space bar.

In the comparison picture below (from the previously mentioned Derek
Warren review), you can see this concept in the MacAlly iKey,
although the equal keys are all a little too small. Again, I could
live with a smaller space bar while expanding all three other keys to
the size of the Control and Command on the Apple Extended II and
Tactile Pro keyboards.

    http://bsd.trideja.com/dmw-review/tactilepro_comparison.jpg
    http://derek.trideja.com/review/tactilepro/

Rob Johnson

Designers use the option key often but, I think leaving it alone is best as it seems like Control is used more and more now for various design programs. The best thing about the Tactile Pro keyboard is all the extra characters on each key. That is half the reason why I bought it.

J. Coates

I'm sure I'm in the minority but one of the things that absolutely
drives me up the wall is a clickety-clackety noisy keyboard! This is
especially true if I am trying to concentrate and the person in a
nearby office is banging away on such. It sometimes reaches the point
where I have to put on earphones and listen to music or just plain
quiet to drown out the disturbing clackety, clackety, clackety, click,
click, clack.... I am a fast touch-typist, 60 words per minute, and
have absolutely no problem using the Apple Pro keyboard which is
whisper quiet compared to that Matias thing.

[I don't know if you're in a minority, but there's no question that some people prefer quiet keyboards. No harm in that; just as some people strongly prefer the feel of the Matias Tactile Pro and are willing to put up with the noise. Heck, I'll bet there are even some people who prefer noisy keyboards. :-) -Adam]

-- James L. Ryan -- TaliesinSoft

 
>[I don't know if you're in a minority, but there's no question that some people prefer quiet
>keyboards. No harm in that; just as some people strongly prefer the feel of the Matias Tactile Pro
>and are willing to put up with the noise. Heck, I'll bet there are even some people who prefer noisy
>keyboards. :-) -Adam]

I wonder if this isn't related to whether one originally learned to type on a typewriter or on a computer keyboard. I kinda like the clatter of my Matias (and I type much more accurately on it, noticeably so, great keyboard!). I learned to type and for years did all my typing on typewriters, and the Matias has a bit of that old audible feedback. My daughter, on the other hand, who learned to keyboard on computers, upon first using the Matias immediately commented on how incredibly loud it is.

--Steve Johgart--

Steve Johgart wrote:

> I kinda like the clatter of my Matias (and I type much more accurately on it,
> noticeably so, great keyboard!). I learned to type and for years did all my
> typing on typewriters, and the Matias has a bit of that old audible feedback.
> My daughter, on the other hand, who learned to keyboard on computers, upon
> first using the Matias immediately commented on how incredibly loud it is.

Last year, I noted that while the Apple Extended II and Matias models may be
louder than average these days, they're nothing compared to the classic IBM
101 and its descendants for Intel-based machines. The 101 uses the
incredibly loud (but lovely) "buckling spring" mechanism:

<http://www.penmachine.com/journal/2003_07_01_news_archive.html#105767734323
494106>

Wintel users love these things. Some reports from the trenches:

<http://www.penmachine.com/journal/2003_05_01_news_archive.html#200303449>

When we had a PC in the den (since replaced with an eMac), my wife and
daughters forced me to swap out my IBM 101 because they couldn't hear the TV
properly when I was typing. The black G4-generation Apple Pro Keyboard I use
now is a decent compromise in that instance.

I'm very tempted to get a Matias now that they're widely available in
Vancouver at retailers (even major electronics/housewares chain London Drugs
carries them for $110 Cdn), despite my stock of keyboards (especially old
ADB ones) being large enough to last my whole life.

--
Derek K. Miller - dkmillerpobox.com
Writer, Editor, Web Guy, Drummer, Dad - Vancouver, Canada
Penmachine Media Company | http://www.penmachine.com
The Neurotics - fab rock | http://www.TheNeurotics.com

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/09/07/sensitive_object_soft_objects//print.html

[Ouch! I like the way keys absorb energy - tapping on a hard surface would hurt. -Adam]

--
Chris Pepper: <http://www.reppep.com/~pepper/>
Rockefeller University: <http://www.rockefeller.edu/>

On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 07:09:03 -0700, Chris Pepper <pepperreppep.com> wrote:
> [Ouch! I like the way keys absorb energy - tapping on a hard surface would hurt. -Adam]

Good point. It all depends on how hard a surface and how hard a
'thump' it needs. If it could use something like a desk blotter and
needed light pressure this could be quite cool. However, I suspect it
has more utility as a substitute for a telephone keypad, remote
control, or something other than a keyboard that needs to manage
100-500 characters per minute.

I like the idea of an IR virtual keyboard that doesn't require you to
actually come in contact with any surface. Products along this line
have been demoed, but as far as I know, nothing is actually shipping
yet. Still, since the keyboard is simply and IR beam, it can be
projected onto anything, and the "press" is merely interrupting the
beam in the right location, so you could 'type' just above the
surface.

OTOH, I wish there was a chorded keyboard that was cheap enough that I
could justify buying one to try to learn it. I am not confident that
I have the required coördination to use a chorded keyboard, and the
expense is rather large for a "I wonder if this will work" keyboard.

--
 ::::== <http://2blog.kreme.com> ==::::

I would prefer the larger option key, because although I use the control key intensively, I don't use the one next to Option. Instead, I swap the control and caps lock keys as most Unix users do. This can be done for any (most?) USB keyboards following the instructions at the following page:

http://ella.slis.indiana.edu/~jfieber/osx/

This doesn't work for PowerBooks because they still use an ADB interface for some reason, but uControl does the job for this case.

By the way, I've bought 6 Tactile Pro keyboards so far. Best keyboard since the Mac SE keyboard or the Sun 3 keyboard.