Younger Than Thou: "When I was your age..."

On 11-Jan-2007, at 17:19, Bill Rowe wrote:
> On 1/9/07 at 5:40 PM, pragerieee.org (Kenneth Prager) wrote:
>> I'm 45 with a 14-year-old high school freshman (plus couple of other
>> younger ones). Rather than bore everyone with examples (which occur
>> daily) of how my teen makes me feel old, I'd just like to offer my
>> kudos to Adam for having the prescience to hire an actual teenager
>> give us the lowdown. Thanks Adam and good job on the article Dan.
>
> While I found the article quite interesting and well written, it
> really didn't address the issue Adam posed as the introduction
> to the article which is why does the author (and his peer group)
> use IM rather than some other form of communication. And perhaps
> implicit is why would I want to make any effort to use IM or
> take any steps to master communications of this form.

Oh, I think there was. Because how else can you carry one 4 or 5
conversations at once and still read your email and work on that
paper that's due tomorrow? You can't do that with a telephone or
Skype, and email is not a conversation in the same way that IM is.

> But no where is any reason for me to have any desire use IM.

Did you expect and evangelical piece singing the praises of IM above
all other forms of communication? Either you use it or not. If not,
then fine.

I use IM, but nothing like that. I talk to a few people on rare
occasions. Most of my communication is either email or IRC, which is
basically IM on steroids.

> I strongly suspect the unwritten reason for the author to use IM
> and become as proficient is the number of his peers that he
> would want to communicate with who also use IM.

It's not all teenagers. My brother (45 this year, Bwahahaha!) uses
it to keep tabs on students in the classes he volunteers as a TA
for. Students, most in there 20's and 30's, use IM as a sort of
study-group and he is able to field questions about assignments and
requirements.

> In my case, since my peer group who I wish to communicate with
> simply don't use IM. Consequently, there is little point in my
> learning to use IM since acquiring that ability cannot improve my
> capability to communicate with my peers.

But then you're simply self-selected yourself out of IM based on your
assumptions that the people in your peer group don't use it. I bet
more use it than you think. But that's not the point, IM is simply a
tool and there's no inherent reason that anyone needs to use it.
Email is just a tool, and there's no inherent reason why anyone needs
to use IT either. Paper letters in paper envelopes may be sooo two
centuries ago, but they still work amazingly well, and can reach
anyone, instead of just those with email accounts.


[This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say. IM is just a tool, but it's a common one that's available to all teenagers now, and there's a network effect in place as soon as one or two of them start using it in a group. It's the same with other communications technologies - I remember being very frustrated freshman year of Cornell (1985) because only one or two of my friends from high school figured out how to get email accounts at their colleges. And all six Zune users are discovering that the Wi-Fi sharing isn't a very useful communications technology because so few people have Zunes. :-) -Adam]

On 13-Jan-07, at 2:37 PM, Google Kreme wrote:
> On 11-Jan-2007, at 17:19, Bill Rowe wrote:
>> In my case, since my peer group who I wish to communicate with
>> simply don't use IM. Consequently, there is little point in my
>> learning to use IM since acquiring that ability cannot improve my
>> capability to communicate with my peers.
>
> But then you're simply self-selected yourself out of IM based on your
> assumptions that the people in your peer group don't use it. I bet
> more use it than you think. But that's not the point, IM is simply a
> tool and there's no inherent reason that anyone needs to use it.
> Email is just a tool, and there's no inherent reason why anyone needs
> to use IT either. Paper letters in paper envelopes may be sooo two
> centuries ago, but they still work amazingly well, and can reach
> anyone, instead of just those with email accounts.

In North America it's mostly just teens. But elsewhere I think IM
becomes popular when local phone calls aren't flat rate and calling
someone costs them money.

My 53-year old brother has always been very computer-literate (he
runs a software company) but he really only became an IM convert
since moving to Manila. Even when the cost isn't an issue, social
etiquette in the Philippines has developed to the point where it's
considered impolite to call (and interrupt someone) when you could
text and let them respond at their convenience.

Robert McGonegal

> In North America it's mostly just teens. But elsewhere I think IM
> becomes popular when local phone calls aren't flat rate and calling
> someone costs them money.

I disagree. I work as a project manager with a widely dispersed team
(the office is in New London, CT and I work out of home in Rhode
Island, others work from Philadephia, San Jose, Knoxville, etc.) IM
is the most effective tool to communicate with colleagues and
teammates. In fact, the company we're all contracting for shut down
access to AIM/MSN/ICQ/GTalk/etc and forced us to use the much less
useful (and uglier) Microsoft Communicator (the Windows-only,
professional level version of MSN Messager) and it was a big step
backwards for us (it also requires us to be VPN'd in to work to use
it which means you can no longer casually keep track of things on
evenings/weekends when you might otherwise disconnect from the
corporate network and it prevents me from using my Mac at home as the
IM tool leaving my thinkpad for those work things I must use it for
and, finally, it also means my wife has no easy way to IM me when I
do go down to New London which means she has to use my cell # which
is far more disruptive to my work as when I am in the office I work
in a team room and phone calls are not easily done).

In short, even in my late 30s, I find IM an indispensable tool for
communications. In my previous job in DC, we used IRC to keep the
team in touch which was also highly useful. So, this is hardly a
unique situation. I bet if you asked, you'd find many more people
than teens use IM.

-A


Andy J. W. Affleck
<http://www.raggedcastle.com/webcrumbs/>

Author: Take Control of Podcasting on the Mac <http://
www.takecontrolbooks.com/podcasting-mac.html>

> In North America it's mostly just teens. But elsewhere I think IM
> becomes popular when local phone calls aren't flat rate and calling
> someone costs them money.
>
> My 53-year old brother has always been very computer-literate (he
> runs a software company) but he really only became an IM convert
> since moving to Manila.

I'd second that observation -- I initially picked up IM knowhow from
my daughter, quickly became a convert, but couldn't convince anyone
from my age group to join in the fun -- my only regular IM with
someone my age has been with a European friend who resides in China.

On 1/15/07 17:15, "Andy Affleck" <aaffleckgmail.com> wrote:

> In short, even in my late 30s, I find IM an indispensable tool for
> communications. In my previous job in DC, we used IRC to keep the
> team in touch which was also highly useful. So, this is hardly a
> unique situation. I bet if you asked, you'd find many more people
> than teens use IM.

Oh good, someone beat me to it. Yeah, IM has become at least as, and with
the current state of spam, working on becoming MORE useful than email for
work communications.

--
John C. Welch Writer/Analyst
Bynkii.com Mac and other opinions
jwelchbynkii.com

Andy Affleck wrote:
>> In North America it's mostly just teens. But elsewhere I think IM
>> becomes popular when local phone calls aren't flat rate and calling
>> someone costs them money.
>
> I disagree. I work as a project manager with a widely dispersed team
>
  [snip of how useful IM is]
>
> In short, even in my late 30s, I find IM an indispensable tool for
> communications. In my previous job in DC, we used IRC to keep the
> team in touch which was also highly useful. So, this is hardly a
> unique situation. I bet if you asked, you'd find many more people
> than teens use IM.
>
> Andy J. W. Affleck

I then to agree it's generational just not limited to teens. I'm and the
lower end of the first wave of computer geeks and I'm 15 years or more
older than you. I, and most other my age and older, find IM very
distracting in it's typical use. My 17 year old son and most of the 20
somethings and some 30 somethings I see think nothing of having 5 or
more active IM windows open while doing "serious" work. :)

Heck I keep 10 to 20 overlapping windows open with the programs I do use
but I notice that most folks my age tend to make each window fill the
screen (even on a 20" display) so they can only see 1 thing at a time.

Adam, any idea of the age range of Tidbits subscribers? Over the last
year or two it seems to me our age bias comes through more and more in
the discussions here.

On Jan 15, 2007, at 3:30 PM, r2ggentlysloping.com wrote:

>> In North America it's mostly just teens. But elsewhere I think IM
>> becomes popular when local phone calls aren't flat rate and calling
>> someone costs them money.
>>
>> My 53-year old brother has always been very computer-literate (he
>> runs a software company) but he really only became an IM convert
>> since moving to Manila.
>
> I'd second that observation -- I initially picked up IM knowhow from
> my daughter, quickly became a convert, but couldn't convince anyone
> from my age group to join in the fun -- my only regular IM with
> someone my age has been with a European friend who resides in China.

We use IM heavily within the company (Internet provider, with people
working from home), using Jabber on a company server isolated from
the Greater Jabber Community. But we also use it in English, not
whatever it is that the kids "speak". (It happens that I use iChat
as my client--most of the others use Adium.)

I almost never use iChat outside the company. My vast "buddy list"
for the AIM connection contains 5 names--three of them company, one
relative, and the local computer club president. It's rare that I
have that online--I put it online so I could count, and none of the
others is online.

So I'm a geezer who uses IM, but not "correctly" according to the at-
large culture.

   --John

At 10:52 PM -0800 1/15/07, David Ross wrote:
>Adam, any idea of the age range of Tidbits subscribers? Over the last
>year or two it seems to me our age bias comes through more and more in
>the discussions here.

It's a good question, and something we plan to ask in an upcoming
reader survey.

cheers... -Adam

I thought I was somewhat proficient in IM (I keep iChat running and use it almost every day) but a
couple years ago I sold my old PowerMac G4 to a friend's 15-year-old son. One day he called with a
panicked "tech support" call: it seems iChat (or AIM, really) has a 200-buddy limit and he'd hit it.
He was totally frustrated -- he wanted to add more buddies and couldn't. I was flabbergasted. I
doubt I have 50 buddies, and most of those are people I've never talked to more than once.

That's when I realized I'm getting old!

-- Marc

______________________________________________________________________
      Marc Zeedar * Publisher * REALbasic Developer Magazine
                    <http://www.rbdeveloper.com/>

Well I'm in my 60's and love IM. As a hobby I have a small jazz server, and regularly chat with a varied group around the world England, Norway, Sweden,Italy NZealand. If it's not through iChat then it's by way of my P2P chat settings. I have been able to kick my music knowledge up a few notches just because of IM. I must say that two windows at a time is my limit, and very little short form words, although it is creeping in......lol

David Ross wrote:
> Andy Affleck wrote:
>>> In North America it's mostly just teens. But elsewhere I think IM
>>> becomes popular when local phone calls aren't flat rate and calling
>>> someone costs them money.
>>
>> I disagree. I work as a project manager with a widely dispersed team
>>
> [snip of how useful IM is]
>>
>> In short, even in my late 30s, I find IM an indispensable tool for
>> communications. In my previous job in DC, we used IRC to keep the
>> team in touch which was also highly useful. So, this is hardly a
>> unique situation. I bet if you asked, you'd find many more people
>> than teens use IM.
>>
> I then to agree it's generational just not limited to teens. I'm and the
> lower end of the first wave of computer geeks and I'm 15 years or more
> older than you. I, and most other my age and older, find IM very
> distracting in it's typical use. My 17 year old son and most of the 20
> somethings and some 30 somethings I see think nothing of having 5 or
> more active IM windows open while doing "serious" work. :)

I'll reply to myself. Just before Christmas we went to visit some of my
kids middle school teachers. These are people that have large followings
of admirers long after they leave middle school. Anyway. One of the
teachers was asked why he never answered IM invites. He said something
which shows a big issue with IM. He said he figures there are over 600
people who know his IM id and "care". So when he gets on to contact
someone he usually gets 10 to 30 invites withing a minute or so. He just
can't keep up. He said he feels like a rabbit trying to cross a clearing
during hunting season.

When Skyping with friends: I haven't seen a limit to contacts, it might
be in a FAQ?

David Ross wrote:
> .....Anyway. One of the
> teachers was asked why he never answered IM invites. He said something
> which shows a big issue with IM. He said he figures there are over 600
> people who know his IM id and "care". So when he gets on to contact
> someone he usually gets 10 to 30 invites withing a minute or so. He just
> can't keep up. He said he feels like a rabbit trying to cross a clearing
> during hunting season.
It is so easy to set yourself up from "Skype Me" to "Invisible" with
several steps between. That keeps things under control, of course.
I've only had one Skype Spam: and 5 minutes later I'd read about those
levels and set one up. My profile is set so that people can find me but
have to ask to talk. IM can't be that much different?

The modes available are: Chat; Video; Audio; File transfer. And when
something doesn't make sense, just switch to another modality. When
Asian friends don't hear a new word clearly, text comes in for 5
seconds. When a child's violin is discussed we transfer an mp3. Beats
the phone because you just get used to saying "Toast's BURNING!" or
something when conversation goes on too long; and pick up the chat
later, when you have time.

If mail does go the way of the Velociraptor: IM & Skype remain ~ with
good possibilities of future improvements & extensions.

George

Kids!
I don't know what's wrong with these kids today!
Kids!
Who can understand anything they say?
Kids!
They're disobedient, disrespectful oafs!
Noisy, crazy, dirty, lazy, loafers!
(And while we're on the subject:)
Kids!
You can talk and talk till your face is blue!
Kids!
But they still just do what they want to do!

Why can't they be like we were,
Perfect in every way?
Oh, what's the matter with kids today?

from Bye, Bye Birdie

Another data point: My 85-year old mother, my 5 siblings and I, along
with various nieces and nephews, "meet" every Sunday evening at 9:00
PM EST for our weekly family chat on AOL's AIM service. Most use the
AIM client software, but Mom and one sister use the AOL software. I
am the only Mac user. I have logging turned on in my AIM client, and
post the transcript of our chat to a personal web server for review
by those who aren't able to make it online.

We mostly post in complete sentences, with punctuation and
capitalization, except for one niece who has completely succumbed to
the IM culture: no caps, no punctuation, and the usual IM shorthand
(lol, brb, etc.) Her e-mails are the same way, and nearly impossible
to read.

I had occasion to IM with a 15-year old grandson, and he asked me why
I used complete sentences, capitalization and such, instead of IM
shorthand. My response was it was ingrained from years of typing
reports, plus I had typing training in high school.

Are we witnessing the advent of a new form of communication, or the
loss of effective communication? Does spelling even count in schools
today? To quote Dennis Miller, I don't want to get off on a rant
here, but I see more and more misspellings in publications that
obviously were simply spell-checked rather than proof-read.
</rant-off>
--
Roger
Lovettsville, VA

Roger D. Parish wrote:
> Another data point: My 85-year old mother, my 5 siblings and I, along
> with various nieces and nephews, "meet" every Sunday evening at 9:00
> PM EST for our weekly family chat on AOL's AIM service. .....
> I had occasion to IM with a 15-year old grandson, and he asked me why
> I used complete sentences, capitalization and such, instead of IM
> shorthand. My response was it was ingrained from years of typing
> reports, plus I had typing training in high school.
>
> Are we witnessing the advent of a new form of communication, or the
> loss of effective communication? Does spelling even count in schools
> today? To quote Dennis Miller, I don't want to get off on a rant
> here, but I see more and more misspellings in publications that
> obviously were simply spell-checked rather than proof-read.
> </rant-off>

I see this lack of proofreading creeping into 'Good Quality' online
newspapers, with the result that some things don't make sense. Often
that does not really matter; when it does I can wait for the next revision.

Obviously people don't have time to proofread. At the same time: I'm
studying nutrition and toxicology seriously, but not professionally, to
track learning abilities in the population. This helps understand
second language learning abilities / difficulties that I see in the work
I've half retired from, now.

There are virtually no one outside special groups, like many Amish today,
who is not significantly affected by the combination of junk nutrition &
pollution we call our environment. A crude measure might be: 5µgm lead
detected in blood might be equivalent to a loss of 5 points on an IQ
score: no big deal for bright kids. Seychelle Islanders might beat
that with a diet of small fish full of unprocessed oils; we probably don't.

Then, 15 year olds are living in a different multi-media, multi-reality
world. I just wait for them to become 25: it doesn't take that long.
And in the 10 intervening years I get to understand the systems logic of
it. Debating and critical logic doesn't stand a chance of tackling the
problem so I nearly always answer the youngsters with a joke: "I'm a
Velociraptor, Kid: proper writing's how we do things."

If dysfunctional text is combined with video and audio it can make great
sense. I think some of the world is carrying these images around in
their heads from current culture and that's how they are understanding
much of their IM shorthand. It could be cured with a new "Literate
Gaming Culture" but no one seems to have smelt any money in that
direction just yet? iPhone can help dysfunctional minds by making
multi-media available alongside IM shorthand and often that embodies a
higher IQ than that of normal mind.

When we combine Multi-Media with the Proper Writing we are used to we
should be world beaters; shouldn't we? Isn't that what Mac OS is about
? Of course the Computer Age has barely begun, yet: there's still time.

George

On 17-Jan-2007, at 23:09, John Massengale wrote:
> Kids!
> I don't know what's wrong with these kids today!
> Kids!
> Who can understand anything they say?
> Kids!
> They're disobedient, disrespectful oafs!
> Noisy, crazy, dirty, lazy, loafers!
> (And while we're on the subject:)
> Kids!
> You can talk and talk till your face is blue!
> Kids!
> But they still just do what they want to do!
>
> Why can't they be like we were,
> Perfect in every way?
> Oh, what's the matter with kids today?
>
> from Bye, Bye Birdie

"Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone
is writing a book." -- Cicero (106-43 BCE)

And, before someone else does it, here's another of my favorites from
Cicero:

"There is nothing so absurd but some philosopher has said it."

I find IM to be a huge distraction--I have enough trouble staying
focused on what I need to work on without constant "Yo, man, what's
up" pings and whatnot. I only launch iChat and such for specific
reasons...

But that's me...

--
Impiety, n. Your irreverence toward my deity.
-Ambrose Bierce, writer (1842-1914)
[The Devil's Dictionary, 1906]

On 18/1/2007 7:17 PM, "Roger D. Parish" <rogerd.parishgmail.com> spake
thus:

> Are we witnessing the advent of a new form of communication, or the
> loss of effective communication? Does spelling even count in schools
> today?

It's not that new, nor is it particularly unique to IM or texting: USENET
posters were using these kinds of abbreviations and conventions fifteen
years ago. The current incarnation is more pervasive because people spend
all their time using these modes of interaction, and because there seems to
be less of an emphasis on appropriate language use in schools these days.

On that note, New Zealand's Ministry of Education recently announced that
high school students would be allowed to use "text-speak" in their final
exams (mainly because they were doing it already anyway). Shudder. The
problem is that in another few years I'll be getting these students in my
classes, and they'll get a very rude shock if they try that on me.

--
Nigel Stanger, Dunedin, NEW ZEALAND.
http://xri.net/=nigel.stanger

On Jan 19, 2007, at 9:40 AM, Nigel Stanger wrote:

> The problem is that in another few years I'll be getting these students
> in my classes, and they'll get a very rude shock if they try that on me.

I have a hunch that they will revert to writing English (in proper
Kiwi form ;-)) by they time they reach your classes.

   --John

At 1:41 PM -0800 1/22/07, johnbaxterlistsmac.com wrote:
>On Jan 19, 2007, at 9:40 AM, Nigel Stanger wrote:
>
>>The problem is that in another few years I'll be getting these students
>>in my classes, and they'll get a very rude shock if they try that on me.
>
>I have a hunch that they will revert to writing English (in proper
>Kiwi form ;-)) by they time they reach your classes.


I had any number of high school students that did not know that their
sms lingo was not appropriate for school assignment.

We learn to write better, in large part, by writing itself. They put
more attention to their sms than any other writing, and they got
better at it. But teaching them that what might be appropriate in one
forum is not necessarily appropriate in another is no small lesson.

--

=Alex Hoffman
Leadership Policy & Politics
Teachers College, Columbia University